Jesus' Divinity And An Idiot

[PhuturePriest]

That's what they all say.

 

There's a fine line between a troll and someone who just hasn't thought their argument through. I know what the latter looks like when I see it, because I've done it a hundred times over. :P

[Didacus]

Peter say it.

God the Father says it.

The devil says admits to it during the temptation of Jesus in the desert.

Demons acknowledge it.

Other...

 

See link below:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhUhnCIY06w

 

 

- for some reason can't paste it properly. whatever... 

(Its a muslim asking the same question so there are a few comments in there you may not want to repeat but the references are good)

 

 

Edited March 11, 2014 by Didacus

[NotreDame]

I've heard muslims say the same thing about christ - that he himself never said he was God - so it's good to have a retort ready. 

 

Arfink's reference to Jesus in front of the Sanhedrin is one really good quote, probably the best.  There are others where he refers to his father and going where he was before, etc.  I will look for these tonight.

 

Jesus talked like a normal dude.  He didn't go around saying "I am the son of God!!!", that would be awkward instead he talked about his Father, who happened to be in heaven.

[Fidei Defensor]

John 1:1-5
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through him, and  without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being in him was life, and the life was the light of all people. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it.

 

 

Granted, I don't believe Jesus necessarily existed. But the Bible is pretty clear that he was God.

Edited March 12, 2014 by tardis ad astra

[PhuturePriest]

John 1:1-5

 

 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being 4 in him was life,a and the life was the light of all people. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it.

Precisely. But this girl told me the Gospels weren't actually written by the Apostles, so this was some other guy claiming Jesus is God.

[Fidei Defensor]

Precisely. But this girl told me the Gospels weren't actually written by the Apostles, so this was some other guy claiming Jesus is God.

I'd just let this one go, then. If you can't even use the Bible to properly argue a point, it's not worth it.

[PhuturePriest]

I'd just let this one go, then. If you can't even use the Bible to properly argue a point, it's not worth it.

 

I still don't get why she was arguing with me. Why would you state Jesus never claimed he was God and then keep arguing the point, just to end up telling me you don't even think the Gospels are authentic when I prove your claims wrong?

[NotreDame]

John 1:1-5
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through him, and  without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being in him was life, and the life was the light of all people. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it.

 

 

Granted, I don't believe Jesus necessarily existed. But the Bible is pretty clear that he was God.

 

The bible is clear, but the argument you get from muslims (and perhaps FP's friend) is that Jesus himself never said he was God, therefore Jesus' divinity is the creation of his apostles and disciples, like John who wrote what you quoted above. 
 

[arfink]

The bible is clear, but the argument you get from muslims (and perhaps FP's friend) is that Jesus himself never said he was God, therefore Jesus' divinity is the creation of his apostles and disciples, like John who wrote what you quoted above. 
 

 

The problem for people who want to argue against Jesus' assertion that he was divine (or his existence at all) is that despite how many people would like to deny it, the Bible is actually at least as academically reliable as a historical primary source as, say, Tertullian. In fact, it's probably much more reliable as a historical source in this instance. We have no other closer eyewitness sources, and the next closest sources (Tertullian being the main one) seem to corroborate rather than deny the reality of a person named Jesus who claimed to be god and was subsequently killed by the Jews for it.

 

Also, the willingness of Jesus' followers to be martyred, and the huge cult that sprang up almost immediately after Jesus' death speaks louder than any history book that people of that time period understood what Jesus was claiming to be.

[PhuturePriest]

The bible is clear, but the argument you get from muslims (and perhaps FP's friend) is that Jesus himself never said he was God, therefore Jesus' divinity is the creation of his apostles and disciples, like John who wrote what you quoted above. 
 

 

But he clearly does state that he is God before the Sanhedrin, which is why he was condemned in the first place.

[NotreDame]

Guys, I get that... I'm not arguing against you - see my post on page 1 - I'm just clarifying the argument you'll get from others.

[arfink]

Guys, I get that... I'm not arguing against you - see my post on page 1 - I'm just clarifying the argument you'll get from others.

 

Totes. ^_^ Why do you think I'm just saying more agreeing things in response? :P

[Fidei Defensor]

The problem for people who want to argue against Jesus' assertion that he was divine (or his existence at all) is that despite how many people would like to deny it, the Bible is actually at least as academically reliable as a historical primary source as, say, Tertullian. In fact, it's probably much more reliable as a historical source in this instance. We have no other closer eyewitness sources, and the next closest sources (Tertullian being the main one) seem to corroborate rather than deny the reality of a person named Jesus who claimed to be god and was subsequently killed by the Jews for it.

 

Also, the willingness of Jesus' followers to be martyred, and the huge cult that sprang up almost immediately after Jesus' death speaks louder than any history book that people of that time period understood what Jesus was claiming to be.

Yes, the Bible is a source. But due to the nature of its content, its a biased source. Thats why it tends to be discounted as a reliable source.

 

Second, martyrdom isn't always the best argument. Nazi soldiers were willing to die for their beliefs, which were much harder to swallow than what Jesus was allegedly selling.

[RC Patriot]

There are two important things to remember when arguing this.
1) If someone claims to be god, that claim is not enough to identify him as God. It was normally interpreted to mean "god-like." In other words, angels. The bible says as much somewhere, but I can't look it up at the moment. So the argument that "Jesus never said he was God," is a dead end road anyway. That is why Jesus said so cryptically, "Before Abraham was, I AM." Now, if you're talking to a JW, this will inevitably lead into an argument about the name God uses with Moses in the desert... be prepared.

2) and probably most importantly, Unitarians try to get away with arguing against the Trinity and the divinity of Christ, but are rarely able to coherently describe what they DO believe. Press this. Ask specifically about what salvation means to them, why it was necessary, and what power Jesus had to pay for sins against God. You'll start finding a lot of self-contradiction.

Also, just because the question was stated "in the gospel" doesn't mean you have to be bound to the gospels to find that evidence. The best of it really in the Book of Revelation. Great question...

[arfink]

Yes, the Bible is a source. But due to the nature of its content, its a biased source. Thats why it tends to be discounted as a reliable source.

 

Second, martyrdom isn't always the best argument. Nazi soldiers were willing to die for their beliefs, which were much harder to swallow than what Jesus was allegedly selling.

 

All sources are biased and unreliable. While the bible may be biased, it should come as no surprise that Jesus claimed he was God and his followers believed that he was and his enemies also believed that he claimed as such.

 

I didn't make further claims there.