Orders That Celebrate The Extraordinary Form

[Sr Mary Catharine OP]

There is nothing wrong with "Feenyites". They have the full approval of their Bishop (one of the Brothers received the Diocesan Pro Life Award last year) and their congregation was "regularized" (which does not mean they were out of the Church. It means that their status was irregular.) with the personal oversight of then C. Ratzinger. One may not agree with their strict interpretation of the doctrine of "no salvation outside the Church" but as it was stated by then C. Ratzinger, this is an approved doctrine of the Church and a strict interpretation may in fact, be held. In everyday life it's not something they keep talking about, either. They are more concerned with sharing the Faith and the joy that comes from the Faith. They are not perfect. How they live religious life may not appeal to everyone, either.

 

They are NOT a monastic community. I would have to say that it would be good if they prayed more of the Divine Office. I know that the Sisters are working up to it and that the "older community"  http://www.sistersofstbenedictcenter.org pray Lauds, Vespers and Compline nearly everyday. (There are some variations because of the schedule.)

 

Since Fr. Feeney died fully in communion with the Church (and there are strong arguments that his excommunication was invalid) then it would probably be good to accept that.

 

(I knew Fr. Feeney personally and was one of the last ones to receive his blessing before he died. I received Holy Communion from his at his last Mass before he died.) As much as I loved him and the communities, I was not called to their way of life.

[Gabriela]

I wasn't saying don't go or it's bad or whatnot. I was relating someone else's experience. I don't know squat about Feenyites or the status of the "salvation outside the Church" doctrine and its various interpretations. I'm glad you do and that you clarified!

[Sr Mary Catharine OP]

Well you did write: "He found out they're Feenyites. You might watch out for that." So to me that would seem to imply there was something one should be cautious about. "Feenyites" is normally used a pejorative title unlike "Dominican". :hmmm:

 

Maybe it's the Dominican in me that seeks the truth, but to me if we are happy about communities who have come back into the Church--for example the Sisters of Mary, Mother of the Church, then we shouldn't pick and choose which persons or groups who have been reconciled to the Church and are in fact well thought of by their Ordinaries. We don't have to like every religious congregation. That's why there are so many of them in the Church! :hehe2: Fr. Feeney's reconciliation happened over 40 years ago!  When the communities began a process of reconciliation it was a very cordial process. It was possible because we had a bishop in Worcester who really took the time to listen and truly showed his love for the communities. So, it wasn't easy but it was a beautiful time of grace.

 

You know, there are too many smiley faces to choose from on this board! You could do a whole conversation without typing one word! :crazy:

[inperpetuity]

Fr. Feeney was a saintly Jesuit.  His books are excellent especially the biography of St. Elizabeth Ann Seton which was the first ever to be written of her.

[AnneLine]

Curiousing, it's nice to see you back on the board!

 

 I'll keep your friend's discernment in my prayer... sounds like that is NOT the community for your friend!   But it may be right for some others, so we will pray for all of you.

 

 

I dunno Sister... I know a few who might consider 'Dominican' pejorative.... ;)   (Anyone remember the 'Dominican/Carmelite/Franciscan/Jesuit' friendly teasings of yesteryear?)

 

 

 

Well you did write: "He found out they're Feenyites. You might watch out for that." So to me that would seem to imply there was something one should be cautious about. "Feenyites" is normally used a pejorative title unlike "Dominican".  :hmmm:

 

 

I dunno Sister... I know a few who might consider 'Dominican' pejorative.... ;)  

(Anyone remember the 'Dominican/Carmelite/Franciscan/Jesuit' friendly teasings of yesteryear?) :wedgie: 

 

 

Maybe it's the Dominican in me that seeks the truth, but to me if we are happy about communities who have come back into the Church--for example the Sisters of Mary, Mother of the Church, then we shouldn't pick and choose which persons or groups who have been reconciled to the Church and are in fact well thought of by their Ordinaries. We don't have to like every religious congregation. That's why there are so many of them in the Church!  :hehe2: Fr. Feeney's reconciliation happened over 40 years ago!  When the communities began a process of reconciliation it was a very cordial process. It was possible because we had a bishop in Worcester who really took the time to listen and truly showed his love for the communities. So, it wasn't easy but it was a beautiful time of grace.

 

That is an excellent point, Sister.  There was a point when, like Curiousings' friend, I was a little taken aback by the connection with Fr. Feeney, but then I realized exactly what you said -- that the Church had reviewed what they said and said it was within the limits permitted, and that if there had been an issue, a reconciliation had taken place.  We will probably never know all the issues surrounding the breach... but I am glad it was repaired before Fr. Feeney's death.

 

(I also know someone who's family name is 'Fini' and who has had SO MANY a questions asked about being related to Fr. Feeney!   :hehe2: )

 

I pray any lingering issues that stem controversy might be healed by God's love.  A number of Jesuits at that time were brought into negative spot lights for a WIDE variety of reasons... and many (perhaps most) have now been completely cleared of any problems.  I don't know if this was part of that... but at least 2 of them were later made Cardinals.  

 

Sometimes things are only clarified over time.  I don't know if this is one more example or not, but I pray for healing for all....

 

I love what you said about the need for people -- and Bishops -- to LISTEN.   And to be open to the realization that sometimes words may not speak the same thing that the heart is saying.  I don't share some of the same interpretations on that doctrine as the Sisters in Massachusetts... nor with everyone on Phatmass, for that matter.  But we are all within the continuum of belief that the Church permits, and we pray for greater unity, and the truth and wisdom that is the hallmark of the Spirit.   And we can all learn to live together in peace and respect, and to pray for each other.  :hug:

 

You know, there are too many smiley faces to choose from on this board! You could do a whole conversation without typing one word!  :crazy:

 

Sometimes there are too many.... and other times not enough!!!!!     :evil:   

 

But God provides for our needs, in smileys and in many other ways!  GOD BE PRAISED!!! :brutebeast: Even the Brute Beasts Adore Him!!!

 

[AnneLine]

(sorry, the quote system mucked up my post above.... didn't mean to repeat myself, but too late to fix it!)   :oops:

[Chiquitunga]

The daughter houses of Valparaiso, at Elysburg PA and Canyon CA ( soon to be Kensington CA) have the EF when they can. 

 

Just thought to clarify, Elysburg has the EF/Traditional Latin Mass always, so I've heard from several sources and priests  

http://friendsofcarmeljmj.org/

[Chiquitunga]

in case there are any here that haven't been mentioned yet, http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/123687-which-communities-celebrate-the-ef-at-all/  always good to search old threads, although the information can be outdated sometimes

 

I just think its good to get a feel for the reality that religious communities don't always get to choose how the community celebrates the Mass. 

 

Very true. Reminds me of what Sr. Mary Catharine posted about this once, especially regarding cloistered communities ... found it! :like: http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/128219-any-poor-clares-with-the-traditional-latin-mass/?p=2567055

[inperpetuity]

 These: http://www.abbayedejouques.org/vocation.html Benedictine nuns have it every day.  You have to know basic French.

[inperpetuity]

It is up to the prioress/superior what mass they have as long as they can get priests to say it.  This is why the Carmelites of Las Vegas moved to Valparaiso, so that they could be closer to the Fssp Seminary so they could have the tlm.

Edited March 16, 2014 by inperpetuity

[Gabriela]

Well you did write: "He found out they're Feenyites. You might watch out for that." So to me that would seem to imply there was something one should be cautious about. "Feenyites" is normally used a pejorative title unlike "Dominican". :hmmm:

 

Maybe it's the Dominican in me that seeks the truth, but to me if we are happy about communities who have come back into the Church--for example the Sisters of Mary, Mother of the Church, then we shouldn't pick and choose which persons or groups who have been reconciled to the Church and are in fact well thought of by their Ordinaries. We don't have to like every religious congregation. That's why there are so many of them in the Church! :hehe2: Fr. Feeney's reconciliation happened over 40 years ago!  When the communities began a process of reconciliation it was a very cordial process. It was possible because we had a bishop in Worcester who really took the time to listen and truly showed his love for the communities. So, it wasn't easy but it was a beautiful time of grace.

 

You know, there are too many smiley faces to choose from on this board! You could do a whole conversation without typing one word! :crazy:

 

I said "You might watch out for that" because I trust my friend is a very orthodox Catholic and he knows a lot more about doctrine than I do. But I also know that sometimes opinion and personal learnings can get in the way of one's judgments, which is why I also mentioned that he's a "rad trad"!

 

Sister, it so happens I just got an email with the catechism passage on salvation outside the Church in it yesterday. (I subscribe to a passage a day that arrives by email.) That passage said that Christians outside the Church can be saved. I don't understand how the catechism says one thing, but Feenyites say another and are still in union with the Church. I'm not questioning that they are: Like I said, I don't understand what happened there, but if the Church says they are in union with Her, I accept that. Can you (or anyone out there) explain how it comes that one is in union with the Church without accepting portions of the catechism? (Maybe we are not bound to accept the catechism in its entirety...? I don't know!)

[reminiscere]

The salvation dogma has been discussed many, many times on PM. Just do a search. However, Vocation Station is not the place for this discussion. 

 

I said "You might watch out for that" because I trust my friend is a very orthodox Catholic and he knows a lot more about doctrine than I do. But I also know that sometimes opinion and personal learnings can get in the way of one's judgments, which is why I also mentioned that he's a "rad trad"!

 

Sister, it so happens I just got an email with the catechism passage on salvation outside the Church in it yesterday. (I subscribe to a passage a day that arrives by email.) That passage said that Christians outside the Church can be saved. I don't understand how the catechism says one thing, but Feenyites say another and are still in union with the Church. I'm not questioning that they are: Like I said, I don't understand what happened there, but if the Church says they are in union with Her, I accept that. Can you (or anyone out there) explain how it comes that one is in union with the Church without accepting portions of the catechism? (Maybe we are not bound to accept the catechism in its entirety...? I don't know!)

 

[Sr Mary Catharine OP]

This isn't the forum for a lot of theological back and forth so I'll keep it brief. If you look at the whole section in CCC #846-848 you can read that this is a de fide doctrine of the Church, and taught by the Fathers of the Church. Which is what Fr. Feeney and SBC has always said. Where the "controversy" has been is how those are saved who, as the Council says, "through no fault of their own do not know Christ and His Church." Fr. Feeney said, "We don't know." and just commended that person to God and would remember them in His Mass. We know what has been revealed to us but how God does it outside of the revealed ways of salvation we don't know. I don't think it's as prevalent now but I would hear of non-Catholics coming to a priest and asking to become Catholic and they would be told, "Oh, you're fine as you are!"

 

Salvation is a gift and one way of looking at this doctrine, and I would say from my experience was where the stress was at SBC, is that because it is GOOD NEWS we have an obligation to preach the Gospel and to invite others into the Church. This is where Evangelicals have it and we don't. When we experience something as Good and Beautiful we want others to experience it, too. This is what Pope Francis is saying in many ways in Evangelii Gaudium. We aren't supposed to keep the gift for ourselves. Where would we all be if the Apostles said, "Well, I don't want to hurt your feelings so I won't preach the Gospel and that Jesus died for our salvation."  I remember one of the Sisters who was a convert say that she wanted to become a Catholic earlier but "nobody invited me". Finally, someone invited her to St. Benedict's and she met Fr. Feeney and he said to her, "And why aren't you a Catholic, dear?" That one question started her journey into the Church. Fr. Feeney loved everything about the Church and he just wanted everyone to have it, too.

 

The whole controversy happened at a very unique time in the Catholic Church in Boston. It wasn't just about doctrine. It was in some ways about a "power struggle" between a society that was Protestant and an Irish Catholic Church coming into power. The Church in Boston wanted to be accepted by the establishment. It was a very different time than our own. There was and continues to be a lot of false information and slander about Fr. Feeney.

 

I don't know if any of this helps. I can assure you that the multiple processes of reconciliation and regularization haven't happened casually. It wasn't done at a local level, either, but with the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 17, 2014 by Sr. Mary Catharine

[marigold]

This isn't the forum for a lot of theological back and forth so I'll keep it brief. If you look at the whole section in CCC #846-848 you can read that this is a de fide doctrine of the Church, and taught by the Fathers of the Church. Which is what Fr. Feeney and SBC has always said. Where the "controversy" has been is how those are saved who, as the Council says, "through no fault of their own do not know Christ and His Church." Fr. Feeney said, "We don't know." and just commended that person to God and would remember them in His Mass. We know what has been revealed to us but how God does it outside of the revealed ways of salvation we don't know. I don't think it's as prevalent now but I would hear of non-Catholics coming to a priest and asking to become Catholic and they would be told, "Oh, you're fine as you are!"

 

Salvation is a gift and one way of looking at this doctrine, and I would say from my experience was where the stress was at SBC, is that because it is GOOD NEWS we have an obligation to preach the Gospel and to invite others into the Church. This is where Evangelicals have it and we don't. When we experience something as Good and Beautiful we want others to experience it, too. This is what Pope Francis is saying in many ways in Evangelii Gaudium. We aren't supposed to keep the gift for ourselves. Where would we all be if the Apostles said, "Well, I don't want to hurt your feelings so I won't preach the Gospel and that Jesus died for our salvation."  I remember one of the Sisters who was a convert say that she wanted to become a Catholic earlier but "nobody invited me". Finally, someone invited her to St. Benedict's and she met Fr. Feeney and he said to her, "And why aren't you a Catholic, dear?" That one question started her journey into the Church. Fr. Feeney loved everything about the Church and he just wanted everyone to have it, too.

 

The whole controversy happened at a very unique time in the Catholic Church in Boston. It wasn't just about doctrine. It was in some ways about a "power struggle" between a society that was Protestant and an Irish Catholic Church coming into power. The Church in Boston wanted to be accepted by the establishment. It was a very different time than our own. There was and continues to be a lot of false information and slander about Fr. Feeney.

 

I don't know if any of this helps. I can assure you that the multiple processes of reconciliation and regularization haven't happened casually. It wasn't done at a local level, either, but with the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

 

So interesting! I feel ignorant - in a good way!

[Gabriela]

This isn't the forum for a lot of theological back and forth so I'll keep it brief. If you look at the whole section in CCC #846-848 you can read that this is a de fide doctrine of the Church, and taught by the Fathers of the Church. Which is what Fr. Feeney and SBC has always said. Where the "controversy" has been is how those are saved who, as the Council says, "through no fault of their own do not know Christ and His Church." Fr. Feeney said, "We don't know." and just commended that person to God and would remember them in His Mass. We know what has been revealed to us but how God does it outside of the revealed ways of salvation we don't know. I don't think it's as prevalent now but I would hear of non-Catholics coming to a priest and asking to become Catholic and they would be told, "Oh, you're fine as you are!"

 

Salvation is a gift and one way of looking at this doctrine, and I would say from my experience was where the stress was at SBC, is that because it is GOOD NEWS we have an obligation to preach the Gospel and to invite others into the Church. This is where Evangelicals have it and we don't. When we experience something as Good and Beautiful we want others to experience it, too. This is what Pope Francis is saying in many ways in Evangelii Gaudium. We aren't supposed to keep the gift for ourselves. Where would we all be if the Apostles said, "Well, I don't want to hurt your feelings so I won't preach the Gospel and that Jesus died for our salvation."  I remember one of the Sisters who was a convert say that she wanted to become a Catholic earlier but "nobody invited me". Finally, someone invited her to St. Benedict's and she met Fr. Feeney and he said to her, "And why aren't you a Catholic, dear?" That one question started her journey into the Church. Fr. Feeney loved everything about the Church and he just wanted everyone to have it, too.

 

The whole controversy happened at a very unique time in the Catholic Church in Boston. It wasn't just about doctrine. It was in some ways about a "power struggle" between a society that was Protestant and an Irish Catholic Church coming into power. The Church in Boston wanted to be accepted by the establishment. It was a very different time than our own. There was and continues to be a lot of false information and slander about Fr. Feeney.

 

I don't know if any of this helps. I can assure you that the multiple processes of reconciliation and regularization haven't happened casually. It wasn't done at a local level, either, but with the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

 

It does help, Sister. Thank you for explaining! :)