toledo_jesus Posted June 6, 2004 Share Posted June 6, 2004 So I'm having a discussion with my mother about the role the pope played in the Holocaust. I have heard many things about how he did not do everything he could have to stop the slaughter, and that a lot of people think the pope actually supported Hitler. But, my position is thus: In the heart of Fascist Italy, surrounded by the Axis, what exactly were the options of Pope Pius XII? Would the Nazis have assassinated him? I find it hard to believe that the answer is as simple as "the Pope just didn't do as much as he could." I have heard tales of the pope resisting and smuggling Jews to safety. I prefer to believe that the Pope did what he could where he could. Of course, I haven't researched the topic. What exactly was the nature of John Paul II's apology to the Jewish people? Does anybody else have any knowledge about this subject? What are your thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeenaBobba Posted June 6, 2004 Share Posted June 6, 2004 Hi toledo_jesus, Dave Armstrong has some material on Pope Pius XII and the Holocaust, which you can read [url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ130.HTM"]here[/url]. Just scroll down after you click the link. This should be of some help to you. God bless, Jennifer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted June 6, 2004 Share Posted June 6, 2004 I heard that Pius XII and Hitler really didn't get along very well. I remember reading Rise and Fall of the Third Reich and something of the effect that Hitler viewed the pope as just one of many political adversaries "in his way" of his goal of having a world-wide Reich. And I think no matter how many times he apologizes, or even if JPII did backflips and ran the Iron Man in his old age as a penance, would people ever find it "acceptable." I remember a political cartoonist sketched a picture of the pope with a scroll saying "Apology, sort of" and that made me mad. Granted an apology may have been in order to a certain degree, but how much do people expect the Vatican to take responsibility for? Why apologize for what wasn't their sin? I doubt Pius XII was in an easy position during that time (I can't even imagine what that must have been like), and what good he DID do is overlooked. I think his critics should know what it was like walking in his papal shoes before they start flapping their gums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathgirl Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 I've heard that the Pope couldn't do much during the Holacaust, b/c if he would have, Catholics would have been treated as badly as the Jews b/c Hitler would have been upset w/ the Pope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 I can imagine it was a very difficult situation, especially when you think of what happened to Edith Stein -- the Nazis invaded Holland, and when the Dutch bishops protested the deportation of the Jews and Jewish children in the Catholic school system, the Nazis arrested all Catholics of Jewish heritage in Holland as a retaliation, including her. I visited the concentration camp at Dachau when I was in Germany in 1998. I was absolutely shocked at the number of priests and nuns that were killed, and this you don't hear about much. Not even necessarily for having Jewish blood, but for the simple matter of not supporting the Nazis. There is beautiful thing at Dachau -- there is a convent of nuns that work and pray 24 hours a day, particularly in reparation for the evils during world war II. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathgirl Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 That is so cool about the convent!! I :wub: nuns! (and monks ) I think it would be soooooo sad to visit a concentration camp!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 If you ever do, don't plan on doing much of anything else that day (or maybe for some people, several days after) particularly anything "fun" and "touristy" because you won't feel festive. It's depressing beyond belief. My friend and cousin, the day we went to Dachau, we stopped by Oktoberfest that evening, and what normally would have been a fun outing, we just had no heart to enjoy, plus it was crowded. We all just wanted to go home, so we did that instead. We were able to enjoy a nice pretzel and beer on the train ride home at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luthien Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 Over a million Catholics were slaughtered, so Ive heard... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeraMaria Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 well, a lot of Polish civilians were killed and most were catholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeraMaria Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 [url="http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/heroes.htm"]http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/heroes.htm[/url] Some stories of Catholics during the Holocaust. Also, a great movie to see is "The Scarlet and the Black". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luthien Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 Sounds right... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeenaBobba Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 The Holocaust was such a sick and tragic thing. I think it was one of the lowest lows humanity has sunk to. God bless, Jen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeraMaria Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 This site has a LOT of stuff [url="http://www.holycross.edu/departments/history/vlapomar/hiatt/hiatt.htm"]http://www.holycross.edu/departments/histo...hiatt/hiatt.htm[/url] Sorry for all the random links, it's just that when we covered the Holocaust I became very interested in the subject and found lots of stuff on websites, but I'm trying to find them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeraMaria Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 [quote name='BeenaBobba' date='Jun 6 2004, 10:08 PM'] The Holocaust was such a sick and tragic thing. I think it was one of the lowest lows humanity has sunk to. God bless, Jen [/quote] I agree. I read "Night" and we saw a video on the hlocaust. I was depresed for weeks, every time I felt happy I just felt shivers and thought of the Holocaust and what we are capable of doing. “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.” Edmund Burke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 Pope Pius XII saved so many jews that Israel named him a Righteous Gentile. THe chief Rabbi of Rome was so moved that he converted to Catholicism. People who claim the Church and the pope in particular didn't do enough either don't know history or lying thru their teeth.!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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