The Cross

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Peace to all you people of the way in Christ our Lord Jesus

 

So this just popped into my head and thought i would initiate a discussion about peoples personal understanding of the verse i will reveal and also whether anyone has any ideas from saints or other church official views on this matter.

 

The verse is when Jesus says " Pick up your cross daily and follow me."

 

So the thought that popped into my head was that i can not actually carry the cross and that when Jesus says this he is sending us into an act of humility that we may cry out to Him in that we can't actually carry the weight of our own sins or sins or the worlds, that only he Jesus God almighty can do such a thing, and once coming to the knowledge of such truth we than begin to learn how to hand our crosses/burdens/sins over to God daily even asap each moment as each cross appears.

 

I don't know, this is just the conclusion i came to this evening. I would love to here and discuss others ideas as to what this verse means, and perhaps there are a few or even numerous meanings personally and communally.

 

Onward christian souls.

 

God iz Good!

[thepiaheart]

If I'm reading you correctly, you're absolutely right, for the Gospels also say that, without Christ, we can do anything; we are, as we were reminded on Ash Wednesday, dust, and to dust we shall return. It is God who breathes life into us, God who sustains us in being and in movement, and it is God who, in having once carried the Cross and our suffering, exterior and interior, willed and unwilled, now suffers with and in us. This act of suffering-in-Christ is what distinguishes Christian suffering from all other suffering; it is the act of binding to the Cross one's misery, wretchedness, toil, and trial, so that the work of the Cross might be completed by being chosen by the Christian and thus its work and its presence extended through time--which is why St. Paul says that in his body is completed the suffering of Christ. We must learn to say the same; when we do, this burden becomes easy, the yoke light.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

I'm meaning we shouldn't have to suffer Pia. My reasoning is if in humility we hand it all over to Jesus and not out of pride try and carry the cross(climb the mountain/golgotha) on our own strength, which is not actually possible, and than if we do hand it over the burden is made light and the yoke easy, because Jesus carries it. Like at 1st we struggle trying to carry the cross and stumble many times until we lay down and surender then Jesus picks up the cross.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[thepiaheart]

Yes, that's what happens--but it's not that suffering disappears; it's that it becomes bearable and light, when before it wasn't. Our faith, hope, and love offer us concrete strength, a concrete shelter. But it's only in feeling the intensity of suffering that we learn experientially how much Christ loved us in his own suffering, and we are able to, in the midst of that suffering, imitate his obedience, his perseverance, his surrender.

[AugustineA]

The cross.. This subject is so far above my understanding. Maybe we can also see it as a proof of love. The cross is associated with pain, and patience in suffering with discipline. We only discipline ourselves for what we love.

 

And maybe, we can also see the cross in light of Papa John Paul's study of the body. The cross is the pain we suffer in the physical world. The nails, the nakedness, the isolation.

 

Maybe.. we could see it in light of our own subjective experiences, in our mind and in our chest, when we experience dark points in our faith. 

 

But mostly it's love.. It's the return to the tree where we first denied God, and where he found us again. 

[Nihil Obstat]

 24. Then said Jesus to his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

25. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

CHRYS; Peter had said, Be it far from you, Lord; this shall not be to you; and had been answered, Get you behind, me, Satan; but the Lord was not satisfied with this rebuke, but over and above desired to show the impropriety of those things which Peter had said, and the fruit of His own passion; whence it is added, Then said Jesus to his disciples, If any man will to come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me; as much as to say, You say to me, Be it far from you; but I say to you, that not only is it harmful for you to hinder Me from My Passion, but yourself will not be able to be saved unless you suffer and die, and renounce your life always. 

And note, that He does not speak of it as compulsory, for He does not say, though you will not yet must you suffer this, but, If any man will. By saying this He rather attracted them ; for he who leaves his auditor at liberty, attracts him the more; whereas he that uses violence oftentimes hinders him. And He proposes this doctrine, not to His disciples only, but in common to the whole world, saying, any man will that is, if woman, if man, if king, if free, if slave; there are three things mentioned; let him deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me. 

GREGORY; For unless a man departs from himself, he does not draw near to Him who is above him. But if we leave ourselves, whither shall we go out of ourselves? Or if we have forsaken ourselves, who is it then that goes? indeed, we are one thing when fallen by sin, another thing as we were made by nature. It is therefore then that we leave and deny ourselves, when we avoid that which w e were of old, and strive towards that to which we are called in newness. 

ID; He denies himself whosoever is changed for the better, and begins to be what he was not, and ceases to be what he was. 

ID; He also denies himself, who having bode under foot the rising of pride, shows himself in the eyes of God to be estranged from himself. 

ORIGEN; But though, a man may seem to keep from sin, yet if he does not believe in the cross of Christ, he cannot be said to be crucified with Christ; whence it follows, And take up his cross. 

CHRYS; Otherwise; He that disowns another, whether a brother, or a servant, or whosoever it be, he may see him beaten, or suffering ought else, and neither succors nor befriends him; thus it is He would have us deny our body, and whether it be beaten or afflicted in any other way, not to spare it. For this is to spare. So parents do then most spare their children when they hand them over to tutors, bidding them not to spare them. And that you should not think that this denial of self extends only to words or affronts, he shows to what degree we should deny ourselves, namely, to death the most shameful, even that of the cross; this He signifies when He says, And take up his cross, and follow me. 

HILARY; We are to follow our Lord by taking up the cross of His passion; and if not in deed, yet in will, bear Him company. 

CHRYS; And because malefactors often suffer grievous things, that you should not suppose that simply to suffer evil is enough, He adds the reason of suffering, when He says, And follow me. For His sake you are to endure all, and to learn His other virtues; for this is to follow Christ aright, to be diligent in the practice of virtues, and to suffer all things for His sake. 

GREG; There are two ways of taking our cross; when the body is afflicted by abstinence, or when the heart is pained by compassion for another. Forasmuch as our very virtues are beset with faults, we must declare that vainglory sometimes attends abstinence of flesh, for the emaciated body and pale countenance betray this high virtue to the praise of the world. Compassion again is sometimes attended by a false affection which is hereby led to be consenting to sin; to shut out these, He adds, and follow me. 

JEROME; Otherwise; He takes up his cross who is crucified to the world; and he to whom the world is crucified, follows his crucified Lord. 

CHRYS; And then because this seemed severe, He softens it by showing the abundant rewards of our pains, and the punishment of evil, He that will save his life shall lose it. 

ORIGEN; This may be understood in two ways. First thus; if any lover of this present life spares his life, fearing to die, and supposing that his life is ended with this death; he seeking in this way to save his life, shall lose it, estranging it from life eternal. But if any, despising the present life, shall contend for the truth to death, he shall lose his life as far as this present life is concerned, but forasmuch as he loses it for Christ, he shall the more save it for life eternal. 

Otherwise thus; if any understand what is true salvation, and desire to obtain it for the salvation of his own life, he by denying himself loses his life as to the enjoyments of the flesh, but saves it by works of piety. He shows by saying, For he that will, that this passage must be connected in sense with that which went before. If then we understand the first, Let him deny himself, of the death of the body, we must take this that follows of death only; but if we understand the first of mortifying the propensities of the flesh, then, to lose life, signifies to give up carnal pleasures.

 

 

 

 

 23. And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

24. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

25. For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?

26. For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

27. But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

CYRIL; Great and noble leaders provoke the mighty in arms to deeds of velour, not only by promising them the honors of victory, but by declaring that suffering is in itself glorious. Such we see is the teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ. For He had foretold to His disciples, that He must needs suffer the accusations of the Jews, be slain, and rise again on the third day. Lest then they should think that Christ indeed was to suffer persecution for the life of the world, but that they might lead a soft life, He shows them that they must needs pass through similar struggles, if they desired to obtain His glory. Hence it is said, And he said to all. 

THEOPHYL; He rightly addressed Himself to all, since He treats of the higher things (which relate to the belief in His birth and passion) apart with His disciples. 

CHRYS. Now the Savior of His great mercy and loving kindness will have no one serve Him unwillingly and from constraint, but those only who come of their own accord, and are grateful for being allowed to serve Him. And so not by compelling men and putting a yoke upon them, but by persuasion and kindness, He draws to Him every where those who are willing, saying, If any man will, &c.

BASIL; But He has left His own life for an example of blameless conversation to those who are willing to obey Him; as He says, Come after me, meaning thereby not a following of His body, for that would be impossible to all, since our Lord is in heaven, but a due imitation of His life according to their capacities. 

THEOPHYL; Now unless a man renounces himself, he comes not near to Him, who is above him; it is said therefore, Let him deny himself. 

BASIL; A denial of one's self is indeed a total forgetfulness of things past, and a forsaking of his own will ill anti affection 

ORIGEN; A man also denies himself when by a sufficient alteration of manners or a good conversation he changes a life of habitual wickedness. He who has long lived in lasciviousness, abandons his lustful self when he becomes chaste, and in like manner a forsaking of any crimes is a denial of one's self.

BASIL; Now a desire of suffering death for Christ and a mortification of one's members which are upon the earth, end a manful resolution to undergo any danger for Christ, and an indifference towards the present life, this it is to take up one's cross. Hence it is added, And let him take up his cross daily. 

THEOPHYL. By the cross, He speaks of an ignominious death, meaning, that if any one will follow Christ, he must not for his own sake flee from even an ignominious death. 

GREG. In two ways also is the cross taken up, either when the body is afflicted through abstinence, or the mind touched by sympathy. 

GREEK EX. He rightly joins these two, Let him deny himself, and let him take up his cross, for as he who is prepared to ascend the cross conceives in his mind the intention of death, and so goes on thinking to have no more part in this life, so he who is willing to follow our Lord, ought first to deny himself, and so take up his cross, that his will may be ready to endure every calamity.

BASIL; Herein then stands a man's perfection, that he should have his affections hardened, even towards life itself, and have ever about him the answer of death, that he should by no means trust in himself. But perfection takes its beginning from the relinquishment of things foreign to it; suppose these to be possessions or vain-glory, or affection for things that profit not.

THEOPHYL; We are bid then to take up the cross of which we have above spoken, and having taken it, to follow our Lord who bore His own cross. Hence it follows, And let him follow me. 

ORIGEN; He assigns the cause of this when He adds, For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; that is, whosoever will according to the present life keep his own soul fixed on things of sense, the same shall lose it, never reaching to the bounds of happiness. But on the other hand He adds, but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake, shall save it. That is, whosoever forsakes the things of sense looking upon truth, and exposes himself to death, as it were losing his life for Christ, shall the rather save it. If then it is a blessed thing to save our life, (with regard to that safety which is in God,) there must be also a certain good surrender of life which is made by looking upon Christ. It seems also to me from resemblance to that denying of one's self which has been before spoken of, that it becomes us to lose a certain sinful life of ours, to take up that which is saved by virtue.

CYRIL; But that incomparable exercise of the passion of Christ, which surpasses the delights and precious things of the world, is alluded to when he adds, What is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world and lose himself, or be a cast away? As if he says, When a man, through his looking after the present delights, gains pleasure, and refuses indeed to suffer, but chooses to live splendidly in his riches, what advantage will he get then, when he has lost his soul? For the fashion of this world passes away, and pleasant things depart as a shadow. For the treasures of ungodliness shall not profit, but righteousness snatches a man from death. 

GREG. Since then the holy Church has one time of persecution, another time of peace, our Lord has noticed both times in His command to us. For at the time of persecution we must lay down our soul, that is our life, which He signified, saying, Whosoever shall lose his life. But in time of peace, those things which have the greatest power to subdue us, our earthly desires, must be vanquished; which He signified, saying, What does it profit a man, &c. Now we commonly despise all fleeting things, but still we are so checked by that feeling of shame so common to man, that we are yet unable to express in words the uprightness which we preserve in our hearts. 

But to this wound the Lord indeed subjoins a suitable application, saying, For whoever shall be ashamed of me and my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed. 

THEOPHYL. He is ashamed of Christ who says, Am I to believe on Him that is crucified? He also is ashamed of His words who despises the simplicity of the Gospel. But of him shall the Lord be ashamed in His kingdom, in the same manner as if a master of a household should have a bad servant, and be ashamed to have him. 

CYRIL; Now he strikes fear into their hearts, when He says that He will descend from heaven, not in His former humility and condition proportioned to our capacities for receiving Him, but in the glory of the Father, with the Angels ministering to Him. For it follows, When he shall come in his own glory, and his Father's, and of the holy angels. Awful then and fatal will it be, to he branded as an enemy, and slothful in business, when so great a Judge shall descend with the armies of Angels standing round Him. But from this you may perceive, that though He has taken to Himself our flesh and blood, the Son is no less God, seeing that He promises to come in the glory of God the Father, and that Angels shall minister to Him as the Judge of all, Who was made man like to us. 

AMBROSE; Now our Lord while He ever raises us to look to the future reward of virtue, and teaches us how good it is to despise worldly things, so also He supports the weakness of the human mind by a present recompense. For it is a hard thing to take up the cross, and expose your life to danger and your body to death; to give up what you are, when you wish to be what you are not; and even the loftiest virtue seldom exchanges things present for future. The good Master then, lest any man should be broken down by despair or weariness, straightway promises that He will be seen by the faithful, in these words, But I say to you, There are some standing here who shall not taste of death till they see the kingdom of God. 

THEOPHYL. That is, the glory in which the righteous shall be. Now He said this of His transfiguration, which was the type of the glory to come; as if He said, There are some standing here, Peter, James, and John, who shall not reach death before they have seen at the time of My transfiguration what will be the glory of those who confess Me. 

GREG. Or, by the kingdom of God in this place, is meant the present Church; and some of His disciples were to live in the body up to that time, when they should behold the Church of God built and raised up against the glory of the world. 

AMBROSE; If then we also wish not to fear death, let us stand where Christ is. For they only cannot taste death who are able to stand with Christ, wherein we may consider from the nature of the very word, that they will not experience even the slightest perception of death, who are thought worthy to obtain union with Christ. At least let us suppose that the death of the body is tasted by touch, the life of the soul preserved by possession; for here not the death of the body, but of the soul, is denied.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Yes, that's what happens--but it's not that suffering disappears; it's that it becomes bearable and light, when before it wasn't. Our faith, hope, and love offer us concrete strength, a concrete shelter. But it's only in feeling the intensity of suffering that we learn experientially how much Christ loved us in his own suffering, and we are able to, in the midst of that suffering, imitate his obedience, his perseverance, his surrender.

 

I may be totally wrong and reading in to this to literally please forgive me if so i'm pretty simple. Jesus doesn't say it becomes easier, he says " My yoke is EASY and the burden is light." not " My yoke is EASIER."? Like Jesus fell 3 times as he carried the cross but he didn't have to, i think it was an example of surrender and Jesus surrendered the cross to simeon, he lay down and surrendered i think as an example of what we should do, and than Jesus becomes Simeon and carries our cross therefore the yoke is easy, it is hard to carry the cross but when we surrender and give the cross to Jesus the burden obviously is easy because we don't have to carry the weight of our sins and the burden is light or illumination/truth that Jesus is LORD and only he can carry the weight of our sins. I used to labour carrying my crosses and i think out of pride thinking i was hercules or something and i'm still recovering from this trying to carry my cross, but that was bull, JESUS iz Hercules.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

  Then said Jesus to his disciples, If any man will to come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me; as much as to say, You say to me, Be it far from you; but I say to you, that not only is it harmful for you to hinder Me from My Passion, but yourself will not be able to be saved unless you suffer and die, and renounce your life always.  

 

 

 

So renounce your own strength/pride and cry out " I CAN'T BUT YOU O LORD JESUS CAN!"

 

That's what i get out of this verse Why am i wrong if i'm wrong? It seems to make perfect sense to me, 'I can't, GOD can.' :)

Edited March 18, 2014 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

I have thought further upon this matter and in a sense perhaps Jesus becomes Simeon and carries our cross, if we are willing to surrender it.

 

What is the cross anyway? Is it anything difficult or does it solely represent suffering caused by sin and christs victory over sin. 

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

 

CYRIL; Great and noble leaders provoke the mighty in arms to deeds of velour, not only by promising them the honors of victory, but by declaring that suffering is in itself glorious. Such we see is the teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ. For He had foretold to His disciples, that He must needs suffer the accusations of the Jews, be slain, and rise again on the third day. Lest then they should think that Christ indeed was to suffer persecution for the life of the world, but that they might lead a soft life, He shows them that they must needs pass through similar struggles, if they desired to obtain His glory. Hence it is said, And he said to all. 
 

 

Rise again on the thrid day, like the falling 3 times than Simeon picking up the cross. And Jesus becomes simeon for us. This is a resurrection gospel not a suffering gospel, resurrection if we are willing to trust in the LORD and submit our lives, or pride, our will to him. Though there may be times of suffering from sins committed and had committed against, my understanding is the faster we hand that over the faster the suffering ends and Jesus picks up that and the burden becomes easy, not bearable or easier, actually easy, that's my theory in experience,practice and personal revelation of holy scripture. And also The whole great and noble leader and the mighty arms thing, i was warned by a priest not to see Jesus as a warrior, i guess that he is a healer, a doctor and not a warrior.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye