Capitalism Is Perfect Or Not?

[CrossCuT]

[RC Patriot]

your delusional again if you don't think obama and his buddies are the rich people.  they don't have any interest in helping the poor.  they just say it to look good.  where as the republicans just come out and say they don't want to help the poor.

 

lol! Sheesh.... to be fair, Republicans focus on business because it's where poor people can get the jobs that will allow them to improve their station in life.

 

The tax system is screwed up in the US, for sure. I certainly don't want more taxes on capital gains, though, which is where the rich, in your previous post, get their money. It's also where money comes from to reinvest in productive enterprises, tractors, machinery, new businesses, new employees, better benefits, all of that comes from capital gains.

 

I'd much rather do away with every tax we have today, except for a flat consumption tax. This way, it won't matter how you got the money, you pay taxes when you spend it. No more tax loopholes for criminals, those paid under the table, or in tips, dividends or "capital gains". The wealthy are taxed when they buy their boats, and the poor are taxed when they buy a new car. Though I've never read it myself, "The Fair Tax Book" describes a way that only new goods are taxed. So the poor could buy a used car and avoid the taxes. I think it would be much more equitable than what we have now.

[havok579257]

lol! Sheesh.... to be fair, Republicans focus on business because it's where poor people can get the jobs that will allow them to improve their station in life.

 

The tax system is screwed up in the US, for sure. I certainly don't want more taxes on capital gains, though, which is where the rich, in your previous post, get their money. It's also where money comes from to reinvest in productive enterprises, tractors, machinery, new businesses, new employees, better benefits, all of that comes from capital gains.

 

I'd much rather do away with every tax we have today, except for a flat consumption tax. This way, it won't matter how you got the money, you pay taxes when you spend it. No more tax loopholes for criminals, those paid under the table, or in tips, dividends or "capital gains". The wealthy are taxed when they buy their boats, and the poor are taxed when they buy a new car. Though I've never read it myself, "The Fair Tax Book" describes a way that only new goods are taxed. So the poor could buy a used car and avoid the taxes. I think it would be much more equitable than what we have now.

 

 

to be fair republicans want no minimum wage so rich business owners can pay their employees at a wage that is not condusive to live off of.  they also think their should be no unions so a worker can be fired for any reason what so ever or not be hired for any reason what so ever, even the color of their skin.

 

except rich people don't reinvest in new employees, that completely false.  currently unemployement is a disaster and profit continue to go up.  the rich get richer, the poor have to do more work for less pay and there are less good jobs to go around.

[Winchester]

i was talking more along the lines of business don't have to pay any taxes on their business's. states such as kansas and missouri do this in hope of bringing jobs to the area, something they claim will happen.  of course it doesn't and the rich business owner gets a tax break or not have to pay any tax to bring their business to a certain state.  

 

 

While I don't like protectionism of any sort, I'd prefer a business coming into an area rather than not. I'm better off if Wal-Mart shows up, even if they don't give politicians more money to spend on dog parks.

[Pliny]

to be fair republicans want no minimum wage so rich business owners can pay their employees at a wage that is not condusive to live off of.  they also think their should be no unions so a worker can be fired for any reason what so ever or not be hired for any reason what so ever, even the color of their skin.

 

except rich people don't reinvest in new employees, that completely false.  currently unemployement is a disaster and profit continue to go up.  the rich get richer, the poor have to do more work for less pay and there are less good jobs to go around.

 

Because of minimum wage laws, poor inner city youths have nothing better to do than rob and take drugs or otherwise be a burden to their families or society.

 

Labor is a resource.  Employers bid on laborers just as we bid on the price of apples by buying or not buying them.

 

Rich people or any people who have the means will hire employees if it is profitable to do so.  They won't hire them if they lose money on them.

 

In a free market everyone has the opportunity to work.

 

You seem to be very bitter.  Do you have a job you hate?  Do you blame "the rich" for your unhappiness?

 

Do you not see that you are a beneficiary of the free market system?  You wouldn't have your tv, computer, car, foods from all over the world, etc., had it not been for capitalism.  

Edited March 12, 2014 by Pliny

[Pliny]

a poor to middle class person should never be paying more in taxes on their income than someone who holds a million dollars, % wise.  the rich get extra breaks when they don't need them. 

 

 

Poor non-working people on welfare don't pay any tax.  Poor working people pay zero federal tax and sometimes a "negative tax" in the form of rebates.

 

Contrary to your continuously repeating that the rich pay NO taxes--they DO.

 

Maybe it's time you define who are "the rich" and maybe it's time you expand the argument beyond the rich to whether we all benefit by capitalism.  Further, you will still have "the rich" in government controlled economies.  You might be able to knock them down a couple of pegs with trade restraints, but that will hurt everyone else as well.  And for some who are so envious of the rich, that might be fine and dandy.

[havok579257]

Because of minimum wage laws, poor inner city youths have nothing better to do than rob and take drugs or otherwise be a burden to their families or society.

 

Labor is a resource.  Employers bid on laborers just as we bid on the price of apples by buying or not buying them.

 

Rich people or any people who have the means will hire employees if it is profitable to do so.  They won't hire them if they lose money on them.

 

In a free market everyone has the opportunity to work.

 

You seem to be very bitter.  Do you have a job you hate?  Do you blame "the rich" for your unhappiness?

 

Do you not see that you are a beneficiary of the free market system?  You wouldn't have your tv, computer, car, foods from all over the world, etc., had it not been for capitalism.  

 

 

yes, the sole reason inner city youths rob and take drugs is because of minimum wage.  i mean they would be a lot more motivated to work is their pay was 4.00 dollars an hour.  i think anyone is delusional who thinks jobs now that currently are paying minimum wage would suddenly pay way more if minimum wage was abolished.  if anything they would pay even less.

 

labor is not the same as apples, not even close.  no one needs to buy apples at the store.  so if the price is to high, then people can just not buy apples.  everyone needs a job.  so if the pay is bad they will still be forced to take it because without money which a job provides you can't eat, have shelter or such things. 

 

rich business owners are making near record profits right now and still not hiring.  so hiring people will not lose them money.  maybe it will cause they to have very good profits instead of incredible profits, but they will not lose money.  also lots of rich business owners will outsource jobs to other countries so they pay workers even less and make an even bigger profit all the while enjoying tax breaks or tax money from people they won't hire.

 

i have a job that i like.  i blame the rich for most of the current mess we are in.  right now in america the rich are given extra help when they don't need it and the poor workers(who i help in my line of work) don't get the same helping hand.  rich pay less a % of taxes than the middle to low class worker.  they get tax payer money when they want to start a business or build a stadium or the such and yet the middle class does not get tax money when they need it more than the rich.  the rich claim they need this money or they won't be able to create more jobs but once they get the money, they don't create more jobs but instead enjoy near record profits.  

 

at the end of the day the issue is rich business owners get help from citizens via tax breaks or straight up tax money and it never trickles down to the working class even though they claim it will.  capitalism at the end of the day makes money into a god where as communism makes the state into a god.  both are not good.  

[havok579257]

Poor non-working people on welfare don't pay any tax.  Poor working people pay zero federal tax and sometimes a "negative tax" in the form of rebates.

 

Contrary to your continuously repeating that the rich pay NO taxes--they DO.

 

Maybe it's time you define who are "the rich" and maybe it's time you expand the argument beyond the rich to whether we all benefit by capitalism.  Further, you will still have "the rich" in government controlled economies.  You might be able to knock them down a couple of pegs with trade restraints, but that will hurt everyone else as well.  And for some who are so envious of the rich, that might be fine and dandy.

 

 

when did anyone say non-working?  i never did.  do you equate poor with non-working?  can someone not work their butts off but still be poor?

 

go look up kansas and missouri and business's jumping state lines to see about business's getting out of paying taxes.  i live in one of these states and work in another, i know all about this.  each state tries to lure a business from the other state to theirs and tries to incentivies them by tax cuts or tax money.

 

so because someone wants a fair playing field they are envious of the rich?  the rich do not pay their equal share compared to the middle and poor working class.  i didn't think it was so wrong to want equality.

[havok579257]

While I don't like protectionism of any sort, I'd prefer a business coming into an area rather than not. I'm better off if Wal-Mart shows up, even if they don't give politicians more money to spend on dog parks.

 

 

except is some cases it doesn't matter at all except to make bigger profits.  here is a perfect example that actually happened.  we will use walmart since i can't remember the name of the actual business.  so walmart resides in missouri.  kansas politicians agree to give them massive tax breaks and give them tax money to even cover the cost of building a new walmart in kansas.  so walmart agrees and moves to kansas.  the site of the new walmart is 5 miles from the missouri border.  its in kansas but it does absolutely nothing for the economy.  the same workers who worked in missouri commute an extra 2 minutes, so no new jobs are created.  the area does not gain any new merchandise since they still went to the walmart in missouri when it was 5 miles away.  they only thing kansas gets income tax from the workers at walmart.  the only problem is the tax breaks and tax money for the building and land outweigh the income tax the state will get.  the only thing that changes is the business owner makes more money.  so the average joe gains nothing and the rich business owner makes a bigger profit doing nothing for the economy.  

[Pliny]

Wages are a price for the exchange of labor.  No different than any other prices, which should be based on supply and demand and the freedom of parties to enter into an agreement.

 

The rich pay taxes.  How much more are they supposed to pay?  That there are those pesky rich people is not a reason to condemn a free market system, which benefits the above poster enormously.

 

It might be good for someone to define what it means to be "rich." 

 

 

 

 

[havok579257]

Wages are a price for the exchange of labor.  No different than any other prices, which should be based on supply and demand and the freedom of parties to enter into an agreement.

 

The rich pay taxes.  How much more are they supposed to pay?  That there are those pesky rich people is not a reason to condemn a free market system, which benefits the above poster enormously.

 

It might be good for someone to define what it means to be "rich." 

 

 

labor is different than material goods you buy.  you don't need a tv but you need a job.  they are only a like in the most basic forms.  a person can just not choose to work because the price of labor sucks.  they will starve.  

 

the rich do not pay and equal share of taxes as the low to middle class.  its really that simple.  they should not be allowed to pay less taxes by % than middle class workers.  its not hard to understand.

[CrossCuT]

 its not hard to understand.

apparently it is

[Pliny]

labor is different than material goods you buy.  you don't need a tv but you need a job.  they are only a like in the most basic forms.  a person can just not choose to work because the price of labor smells of elderberries.  they will starve.  

 

the rich do not pay and equal share of taxes as the low to middle class.  its really that simple.  they should not be allowed to pay less taxes by % than middle class workers.  its not hard to understand.

 

We have a graduated income tax scheme.  The more you make the greater percentage you pay. It's not fair to those who have higher incomes, but that's the way it is.  Your claim is entirely bogus, unless you are considering investment returns to be "income" but that's a different matter, and their principal is at risk.

 

Define "rich" please.

 

And no, a price is a price.  The same economic principles guide the prices of labor as they do apples and computers.

 

What is hard to understand is in a discussion about free markets you obsess about "the rich" and discuss no other aspect of capitalism and fail to see or admit how greatly you are benefited by it;

[havok579257]

We have a graduated income tax scheme.  The more you make the greater percentage you pay. It's not fair to those who have higher incomes, but that's the way it is.  Your claim is entirely bogus, unless you are considering investment returns to be "income" but that's a different matter, and their principal is at risk.

 

Define "rich" please.

 

And no, a price is a price.  The same economic principles guide the prices of labor as they do apples and computers.

 

What is hard to understand is in a discussion about free markets you obsess about "the rich" and discuss no other aspect of capitalism and fail to see or admit how greatly you are benefited by it;

 

 

rich do not pay more taxes.  through tax breaks they pay less.  just look at how much taxes % wise the last 2 presidential candidates paid in taxes.  they avoid taxes through tax breaks, getting tax dollars from poor they don't need and through taking tax money and then outsourcing jobs.

 

labor is not the same as good's.  unless your going to tell me everyone can survive without money.  cause everyone can survive without a tv.  not everyone can survive with money which coms from labor.

 

#1 issue with communism is it makes the state into a god.

#1 issue with capitalism is it makes money into a god.

 

 

Edited March 13, 2014 by havok579257

[CrossCuT]

What is hard to understand is in a discussion about free markets you obsess about "the rich" and discuss no other aspect of capitalism and fail to see or admit how greatly you are benefited by it;

 

Of course we benefit from capitalism! Its pretty nice! America is one of the best countries to live in for tons of reasons.

But like I said before, Capitalism doesnt have the person at heart. Capitalism seeks to turn everything into a business and that is GOOD for most things but bad for others.

 

Students who are trying to pay for school should not be considered customers...they have a right to that education.

Similarly to the minimum wage thing...while capitalism dictates that things are worth their value blah blah, that is fine, but in this scenario there are people on the line. The one thing that is always worth more than anything is the value of human dignity etc. Even while it is not in the tenants of capitalism to care for individuals in that way, that is where its weakness is.

 

Regardless of what capitalism says, I believe that we ought to pay people a humane wage, tax fairly etc.