Socrates Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 I did not want to derail a thread in the open mic and it seems philny wants to debate this topic, so I figured let's talk. Is capitalism a perfect form of government and can it/will it create a utopian form of society? I've been away from phatmass and haven't read everything in the thread, but"capitalism" (actually a rather vague marxist term - I'm a proponent of a free market economy myself, as opposed to our system of "crony capitalism") is not a form of government, but an economic system. And no, capitalism or the free market will not create a perfect utopian form of society. No human society in this fallen world will be perfect this side of the Second Coming. "Utopia" means literally "nowhere." It's leftist ideologies that are utopian, thinking they can create a perfect paradise on earth by state intervention. State control of the economy, jobs, wages, prices, etc., has already been tried and failed. Look at the fate of Soviet Russia, and other Communist countries. Our country has been going down the drain since the 70s when the government refused to regulate those greedy top dogs. Then, they destroyed our housing market, banks, etc. They have been funneling money up to the top without anyone stopping them. Why? because all the politicians are in on it and its a big LOL party. Taxes and prices are going up for the rest of us and none of this money is trickling down. We are creating a huge gap and the world is going to end. Why does the top 1% who hold pretty much all the wealth of the nation need MOAR money and less taxes to create jobs? . . . You cant look at me straight faced and tell me that the unregulated housing loan schemes from the 70s didnt cause a huge whopping problem. Obama even said "Lets regulate it so they cant literally steal money from the people anymore" Did he? No. The same people are stealing money as we speak and destroying our economy as a result. BUT, they make tons $$$ and money buys power. The housing bust and recession of 2008 were actually caused by government regulation and manipulation of the market, which creates artificial "bubbles" doomed to burst. (In that case, specifically the housing market, but more generally by the centralized, government-created bank (the Federal Reserve) artificially manipulating the money supply. The problem is not "unregulated" business, but the unholy corporatist collusion of big government and big business. The solution is not to put more Democrats, or more Republicans, "in charge of" the economy, but to end government manipulation of the economy and money supply, period. You can educate yourself on the topic by reading Thomas Woods' Meltdown: A Free-Market Look at Why the Stock Market Collapsed, the Economy Tanked, and Government Bailouts Will Make Things Worse. (I'd also recommend his The Church and the Market: A Catholic Defense of the Free Economy for a more general treatment of economics. (Or read whatever Winnie linked to). (For a nice, short illustration of the utter ludicrousness of the idea of the state-controlled economy, you can read Leonard Read's classic "I Pencil" here. Just as true today as when it was written in the '50s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Define capitalism and socialism as you understand them, then define distributionism and explain why it would be better. As I've explained in my posts, distributionism seems to ignore even the most basic economics and top-down distributionism seems pretty totalitarian. The second Thomas Woods book I linked to gives an excellent and thorough refutations of distributivism (while respecting those who hold such theories, and avoiding ad-hominems). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 I've been away from phatmass and haven't read everything in the thread, but"capitalism" (actually a rather vague marxist term - I'm a proponent of a free market economy myself, as opposed to our system of "crony capitalism") is not a form of government, but an economic system. You cannot seperate an economic system from the political-legal system within which it is operating. I'm a big fan of utilizing math and mathematical models to elucidate arguments and represent models of limited aspects of reality but one negative aspect of the sometimes excessive (to take a very basic example, ordinal utility functions) mathematization of economics is that it allows economics to be ghettoized. It used to be that political-economy was a single field. The separation of economics from the political sciences has given some people the false idea that economics can be separated or exist independent of a larger political and legal framework. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 The housing bust and recession of 2008 were actually caused by government regulation and manipulation of the market, which creates artificial "bubbles" doomed to burst. (In that case, specifically the housing market, but more generally by the centralized, government-created bank (the Federal Reserve) artificially manipulating the money supply. Richard Posner very neatly demolishes this completely unfounded claim in his recent(ish) book Failure of Capitalist Democracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotreDame Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 (edited) Richard Posner very neatly demolishes this completely unfounded claim in his recent(ish) book Failure of Capitalist Democracy. really? Which parts did you find so compelling? Edited March 20, 2014 by NotreDame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RC Patriot Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 HAVOC, is there really anyone, anywhere who's arguing that denying wages to employees which were previously agreed to is "honest," as you say? Seriously, man, get a grip! Wal-mart was wrong, and they rightly got sued to correct the injustice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotreDame Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 The student loan industry is regulated. It's just not well regulated. If it were then Sally Mae wouldn't be able to give Jon Boehner's daughter a job. If it were well regulated, there would never have been a Sallie Mae. But of course, "Good" and "Bad" is all relative. Government intrusion into the market has: A) expanded the power of individual politicians B) expanded their donor base to include the regulated industry C) given politicians, their friends, family, and donors plenty of available jobs in the regulated industry D) thereby expanding the power of said politicians So I'm sure from the politicians' perspective regulations are working exactly as they are supposed to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 . . . in his recent(ish) book Failure of Capitalist Democracy. . . . in contrast to the glowing success of socialist totalitarianism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 . . . in contrast to the glowing success of socialist totalitarianism. Right. So Justice Richard Posner is an ardent capitalist. He was for decades an ardent defender of the Chicago School and even though he did somewhat revise his views in light of the economic evidence following the crash he makes it very clear in his books and his other writings that he is a believer of capitalism, highly suspicious (even hostile) of attempts to utilize the law to effect social justice, and takes pains in his book to point out in his book how government regulation retarded the mild Keynsian efforts of the Bush and Obama administrations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Nuance: frustrating the reactionary dogmatist since 1843 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotreDame Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 We get it Hasan. There's a book out there by Judge Richard Posner that says something that you like. Which parts are so compelling to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotreDame Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Nuance: frustrating the reactionary dogmatist since 1843 What is the nuance we are missing, Hasan? Why do you think the stock market and housing bubbles of the 2000's can't be laid at the feet of the federal reserve and federal govt? Since you keep bringing him up, what were Richard Posner's arguments to that effect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just a Skosh Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Can't be perfect, nothing is perfect. There is no perfect economic system, they all have their flaws. Based on the preponderence of evidence (aka it's been around for a hell of a long time) capitalism seems to be a pretty good choice for this world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted April 8, 2014 Author Share Posted April 8, 2014 Can't be perfect, nothing is perfect. There is no perfect economic system, they all have their flaws. Based on the preponderence of evidence (aka it's been around for a hell of a long time) capitalism seems to be a pretty good choice for this world. and what makes it a good choice over all other forms of government(remember there is more than capitalism and socialism)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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