Pope Francis: Church Could Support Civil Unions

[Ice_nine]

so many words. such interest. such dilemma.

[Ash Wednesday]

[4588686]

What makes a society traditional?

[Not The Philosopher]

What makes a society traditional?

 

My kneejerk response is that a traditional society is one where its members understand themselves and what they should do with their lives in terms of a broader cultural/metaphysical narrative.
 

[4588686]

My kneejerk response is that a traditional society is one where its members understand themselves and what they should do with their lives in terms of a broader cultural/metaphysical narrative.

How does that not apply to everyone?

[RC Patriot]

I just want to throw this out there for people to consider. The Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy published a paper called "What is Marriage." Honestly, I'm surprised it hasn't come up already, which really just means that EVERYONE who wants to be informed on the issue and be able to debate it from more than a theological perspective NEEDS TO READ. Seriously... it's that good :like2:

 

http://www.harvard-jlpp.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/GeorgeFinal.pdf

 

"It has sometimes been suggested that the conjugal understanding of marriage is based only on religious beliefs. This is false. Although the world's major religious traditions have historically understood marriage as a union of man and woman that is by nature apt for procreation and child rearing, this suggests merely that no one religion invented marriage. Instead, the demands of our common human nature have shaped (however imperfectly) all of our religious traditions to recognize this natural institution. As such, marriage is the type of social practice whose basic contours can be discerned by our common human reason, whatever our religious background. We argue in this Article for legally enshrining the conjugal view of marriage, using arguments that require no appeal to religious authority."

[mortify ii]

Peace be with you,

 

Thanks for the reading material! I hope I don't oversimplify or butcher it

 

http://prospect.org/article/my-so-called-ex-gay-life

 

^ Above is an interesting article from one of Nicolosi's patients (with a bit of interview from Nicolosi). Research does not support the efficacy of conversion therapy. However, regardless of whether we can alter sexual orientation, it seems that there is too large of a risk associated with this treatment. Even if there is a 30% success rate, imagine the amount of distress for the other 70%. Failed conversion treatments have resulted in suicides from those who would have been better off not undergoing the therapy to begin with.

 

Charles Socarides was unquestionably a great psychoanalyst. The ideas of Freud are a bit outdated, though, and much of psychoanalysis runs off of theories that have little empirical backing (I'd be happy to have someone correct me on this). Nicolosi and Socarides both shared, in my opinion, an overly simplistic understanding of the causes of homosexuality. I'd be willing to accept that gay attraction is entirely based on environmental factors, but I don't buy that parental upbringing and abuse can explain homosexual attraction for the majority.

 

Btw, I found it interesting that Socarides' son is openly gay.

 

I found it interesting that Socaride's had a gay son as well, but not in the sense of surprise that such a man could have a gay son, and of course it bears no impact on his research and treatment, but rather the way he handled his son's choice to be gay. He accepted it. See Socarides was never seeking out homosexuals to change them, they were seeking him out. Just like with an alcoholic the biggest step is first realizing you have a problem and then taking the measures to fix it. And just like with any detox or AA program, the failure rate is, the treatment extremely uncomfortable to say the least, but it is necessary when the brain has become pathologically disordered. 

 

For me, even though Socarides et al are in the minority, their position rings more true in my own world experience. That includes the case of a friend I mention above and other personal experiences. What's also interesting is that for a long time the DSM listed homosexuality as mental disorder, and how and why that changed Socarides had a lot of interesting things to say. 

 

I think it's obvious why I don't agree with civil unions between homosexuals and why the Holy Father was speaking rashly, as is unfortunately becoming all too common with him. So I've just about said all that I wanted to on this topic, you're welcome to have the last word.

 

 

[4588686]

What is a traditional society, mortify?

[mortify ii]

What is a traditional society, mortify?

 

"A civilization or a society is "traditional" when it is ruled by prin-
ciples that transcend what is merely human and individual, and when
all its sectors are formed and ordered from above, and directed to what
is above. Beyond the variety of historical forms, there has existed an
essentially identical and constant world of Tradition..."

[4588686]

"A civilization or a society is "traditional" when it is ruled by prin-
ciples that transcend what is merely human and individual, and when
all its sectors are formed and ordered from above, and directed to what
is above. Beyond the variety of historical forms, there has existed an
essentially identical and constant world of Tradition..."

 

 

Why does that make it traditional?  Moreover, even accepting that extremely vague definition for a moment, how do any of the countries you listed in your poll fit that definition?  

[Winchester]

What is a traditional society, mortify?

"Traditional" means something I like that has been done for a while. Or something I like that I pretend has been done for a while. Or something I liked that allegedly used to be done. 

[mortify ii]

Why does that make it traditional?  Moreover, even accepting that extremely vague definition for a moment, how do any of the countries you listed in your poll fit that definition?  

 

I had posted the poll just to get an idea of what most people statistically believe in a given nation, I did not mean to suggest any of those countries were Traditional. Most of them encompass the the same Western worldview that makes them Modern and not Traditional. The only Traditional societies in our present time would be places like Tibet, Vatican City and the Church, Aboriginal and other small native societies which still center themselves on a higher principle, whether it be Dharma, Tao, World-Nature, or Divine Law. What makes them Traditional is that the principle they adhere to is supra human and passed on to them from top down. 

[4588686]

"Traditional" means something I like that has been done for a while. Or something I like that I pretend has been done for a while. Or something I liked that allegedly used to be done. 

 

 

HEY NOW.

[CatholicsAreKewl]

Peace be with you,

 

 

I found it interesting that Socaride's had a gay son as well, but not in the sense of surprise that such a man could have a gay son, and of course it bears no impact on his research and treatment, but rather the way he handled his son's choice to be gay. He accepted it. 

 

I think we're jumping the gun by saying his son chose to be gay. 

 

 

 

 

See Socarides was never seeking out homosexuals to change them, they were seeking him out.

 

True, but I think the overwhelming majority did it for arguably unhealthy reasons. A very high percentage of those who seek gay-conversion are from conservative/religious backgrounds. 

 

 

 

  Just like with an alcoholic the biggest step is first realizing you have a problem and then taking the measures to fix it. And just like with any detox or AA program, the failure rate is, the treatment extremely uncomfortable to say the least, but it is necessary when the brain has become pathologically disordered.  

 

We both agreed earlier that homosexuality is not a disorder (there's research to back this). It's somewhat confusing to now compare it to alcoholism. Addiction is extremely harmful physically and psychologically. Homosexuality is not. It's worth it to go through rehab because of how horribly addiction affects every aspect of a person's life. Conversion therapy is different. The positive and negative effects of conversion therapy are not commensurate. This is a case of people trying desperately hard to change something that alone is not harmful. 

 

 

 

For me, even though Socarides et al are in the minority, their position rings more true in my own world experience. That includes the case of a friend I mention above and other personal experiences. What's also interesting is that for a long time the DSM listed homosexuality as mental disorder, and how and why that changed Socarides had a lot of interesting things to say.

 

Socarides makes some interesting points, which is why it would be interesting for us to go over the research together. I hope we can agree that there isn't a universal explanation for why someone is gay. I'm open to any opinions on this subject. Whether or not people are born gay doesn't hurt or help my position. 

 

 

 

 

I think it's obvious why I don't agree with civil unions between homosexuals.

 

I don't. I'm still trying to understand your views on this.

Edited March 17, 2014 by CatholicsAreKewl

[4588686]

 

I don't. I'm still trying to understand your view on this whole thing. 

 

 

Because it's not a coherent viewpoint.