I'm Coming Out

[CrossCuT]

 

You simply aren't acknowledging the deepening parallel between the intolerance for Christianity/Catholicism and being homosexual.
 

 

 

 

I think its circular. 

A lot of Catholics/Christians do not tolerate homosexuals, so in turn they are like  w t f   and then dont tolerate Catholics/Christians.

So maybe if we all just started sipping the happy kool-aid we would all be better. 

 

I also believe that people are mildly perturbed at the comparison in general which is all Beatitude is saying. You really cant compare the two on the same level. Sorry

Edited March 6, 2014 by CrossCuT

[Anastasia13]

You simply aren't acknowledging the deepening parallel between the intolerance for Christianity/Catholicism and being homosexual.
 

 

Both can get you killed in Saudi Arabia.

[CrossCuT]

Lilllabettt must just come into contact with a high number of huge [mod]unfriendly pholks (look the fiddler missed something!) - BG[/mod]. I was quite open about my Lenten obligations in my coworker circle and they were totally fine with it.

[PhuturePriest]

Lilllabettt must just come into contact with a high number of huge [mod]unfriendly pholks (look the fiddler missed something!) - BG[/mod]. I was quite open about my Lenten obligations in my coworker circle and they were totally fine with it.

 

She has stated her college is one of the most intolerant universities in the country (As said by her atheist professor).

[blazeingstar]

I think its circular. 

A lot of Catholics/Christians do not tolerate homosexuals, so in turn they are like  w t f   and then dont tolerate Catholics/Christians.

So maybe if we all just started sipping the happy kool-aid we would all be better. 

 

I also believe that people are mildly perturbed at the comparison in general which is all Beatitude is saying. You really cant compare the two on the same level. Sorry

 

Umm yeah, you can.  The GOVERNOR of a state said that Catholics are not welcome, yet no firestorm on him.  In New England there are publcized cases of photograhers going out of business for not shooting homosexual weddings/families, however, there are numerous photographers who won't shoot Catholic weddings because of their beliefs.

 

Why is it sad that lesbians could be killed for being sent back to their home country, but not Catholics?

 

The fact is, that ateast in my part of the country, it is becoming hostile.  It is sad that you won't accept that.  Your ignorance won't really affect my life.  It won't affect the fact that my friend has a hard time in the grocery store with her 5 children even when they are perfect angels because people call her nasty names and mock her.  (saying things in front of her children like she has a freeway vagina or that "its not a clown car, it's a uterus")  It doesn't change the fact that people in the office regularly degrade and mock Catholics, it dosn't change reality for my co-worker who was harassed out of the office for simply being a member of a local baptist church that protested gay marriage, your opinion of how "easy" we're treated really has nothing to do with my reality.  So great, I'm glad you live in such a happy, innocent world.

 

So great.  Thats how you want to see things.

[Maggyie]

She has stated her college is one of the most intolerant universities in the country (As said by her atheist professor).

 

It's also one of the best in the country, so keep in mind these people will be heavily involved in running society (specifically, our education system) in the decades to come.

[beatitude]

First off, I have been involved with refugee and asylum rights for years. Never, never have I come across a single case of a heterosexual couple being pressured into providing porn so that their asylum case might be processed. With heterosexual couples, letters from well-respected members of the community testifying to the couple's relationship will suffice. This also isn't about 'immigration', it is about asylum. Vulnerable women whose lives are often on the line are being asked by male officials to hand over these tapes when they're alone in a strange place, they have no family (or their family may have harmed them), they may not understand their legal rights properly, they may not speak the language, they have nowhere to turn. Your earlier comparison between this disgusting coercion and nuns being harassed by the TSA, and now between this and the experiences heterosexual immigrant couples, is example of exactly the kind of comparison and equivocation that staggers me so much. It is not the same, especially as these lesbian asylum seekers don't exactly have the option to skip off to Germany to live there instead, and their lives are at risk.

 

Your arrogance is in that you won't see that there are persecuted Christians/Catholics in the world who may still suffer here in the US.   As I stated, I have immigrant friends from Indonesia who face death due to their Catholicism in Indonesia, and here in the US face unemployment.  However, unemployment is better than death.

 

Are they unemployed for no other reason than that they're Catholics?

 

You also seem to have no idea that becoming Catholic in the bible belt or Morman country can do the EXACT same thing that you are talking about.  One of my youth minister friends who married a phillipino only recently (in the past 5 years) has had contact with is evangelical family after he became Catholic decades ago.  Do we need to campaign for awareness of that?

 

Was he kicked out on the streets by his family with nowhere to go? If so, then yes, we certainly do need to campaign for awareness around this. The fact is that there are homeless shelters specifically for LGBT youth for this very reason, and those shelters are always packed to the rafters. An evangelical family might disown their Catholic offspring, but this is not such a huge phenomenon that we need emergency shelters to help Catholic kids and young adults who have nowhere else to sleep.

 

 

I was very involved and loved my first workplace, I had great friends who I ate lunch with every day, and even did things with on the weekends....however after 2 years of great relationship and keeping my conservative beliefs to myself, it suddenly got out that I was a practicing Catholic.  Then and there I lost those friends and life was never the same at that job.  So yes, I get it, and yes, it does happen.  So tell me, ye keeper of who can have what emotions, how that is any different than what happened to Fran.  Because I can "change" being Catholic...well no, quite frankly, I can't  I'm Baptized and Confirmed...I can "feel" I'm not Catholic or convince myself I'm not, but I always will be Catholic, so I choose to live those beliefs...and take the consequences of them. 

 

 

 

I have never tried to say who can have what emotions. I have criticised the comparisons that people make on the basis of those emotions. There is a difference. There is a glaring difference between the two situations you're comparing here, and one that anyone who values their faith should be able to see - feeling frightened of rejection in your workplace is not the same as feeling frightened of rejection in your spiritual home, which all of us should be able to turn to as our rock and our anchor no matter what the situation elsewhere, including our workplaces. I am sorry that you lost friends among your coworkers, it's a horrible upsetting experience to have, but no, it's not the same as facing hostility in the place that matters most to you in the entire world and that you want to be a part of until you die. If you are rejected in your workplace, you can expect support from the Catholic faithful. You can take it for granted. If a gay Catholic is rejected in the workplace, they might not be able to take it for granted that the people in the parish will be backing them - if they even dare to talk about it there.

 

I am not declaring proof that I'm a maryter but that there is a growing tide of anti-Christian, Anti-catholic behavior.  That it IS acceptible in New York for the acting GOVERNOR to say that Catholics are not welcome in his state, and that it is acceptable for photographers to deny Catholics photography but it is NOT acceptable to do the same to homosexuals.

 

 

 

Could you please provide an example of one photographer (you have said there are 'many', so a few names and details shouldn't be difficult to provide) who has denied their services to a Catholic wedding on the grounds that they don't believe in serving Catholics? If such a photographer exists, then it would be perfectly possible to sue them and win under anti-discrimination laws.

 

The NY governor made no mention of Catholics. The phrase he used was 'extreme conservative Republicans'. He still shouldn't have said what he said, but it's hardly an example of him singling out Catholics. It's an example of nasty partisan attitudes.

 

When we need those homelessness shelters for Catholic youth, we can talk about the 'deepening parallel' between discrimination against gay people and intolerance of Catholics. (It's also worth noting that intolerance and discrimination aren't the same thing - discriminating against you as a Catholic in that workplace would have meant them finding pretexts to sack you or make you leave.) Right now the parallel isn't there. I am sure most of us could think of times when we've faced unkindness over our Catholicism, but this doesn't mean that all of us are keen to play Oppression Olympics with gay people, who until relatively recently had their sexuality listed as a mental disorder and even classified as illegal.

 

[NotreDame]

Lilllabettt must just come into contact with a high number of huge [mod]How many of you quoted this post anyhow? This is a pain to edit.-BG[/mod]. I was quite open about my Lenten obligations in my coworker circle and they were totally fine with it.

 

If you are on the coasts, especially in urban communities, you run into what Lillabet and I run into.  If you've never lived in those areas or worked around this set, then what she (and I occasionally describe) might seem very foreign to you.  I know that if you are in/from Texas, Kansas, or Oklahoma, you'll probably have a different experience. 
 

[Aloysius]

as far as Luigi's retort to what BG perceived as my snarkiness but was really just my oh-so-cleverness, I was of course just pointing out that this thread definitely was about this topic from the beginning.  

 

anyway, there is definitely alienation and non-acceptance that comes with being an Orthodox Catholic in today's society, no question.  but as we discovered on another thread, drawing comparisons between wholly different kinds of alienation/discrimination tends to rustle some jimmies, and rustle them good.  we should not be dismissive of anyone's struggles (Oh no, I used the word dismissive, I might have to use that thirty more times before this thread is over!), but we should also be very careful about the analogies we draw about them.

 

just remember, anytime you feel persecuted, derided, alienated or ridiculed because of your faith, Our Lord told you to rejoice for that.  of course we should also work to stop that from happening, the increasing hostility towards orthodox Catholicism is troubling, though at the risk of unhelpful comparisons, I don't think it's quite "as bad" as it was. say. for Catholics in Ireland for hundreds of years, for black people in the civil rights era, or for homosexuals now.  but that doesn't matter, these comparisons don't matter, the fact that people are being shunned or discriminated against for their religion is awful.  unfortunately many people can't see any distance between the Church's view of homosexuality and the views of hateful people like the Westboro Baptists, etc, which is why they get hostile because they don't see those distinctions that are extremely important, and are caught up in these culture wars getting just as heated and worked up at moments when they shouldn't (such as when seeing ashes on your forehead) as any diehard culture warrior who refuses to say Happy Holidays.  It is great that you are not afraid to wear your ashes and let everyone know your faith at work even though you are ridiculed, derided, or alienated.  perhaps that fellow undercover Catholic you met will be inspired.  

[NotreDame]

Both can get you killed in Saudi Arabia.

This is a very good point.  Nobody has persecuted homosexuals more than marxism, facism and islam.  Homosexuals historically have been the safest in the cradle of western civilization with it's Christianity and belief in the individual.  It's only the freedom offered from our Christian cultures that has allowed them to be this out in the open in the first place.

[NotreDame]

 I don't think it's quite "as bad" as it was. say. for Catholics in Ireland for hundreds of years, for black people in the civil rights era, or for homosexuals now. 

Catholics in Ireland and England certainly had rough times as did Blacks in the Southern USA... Where exactly is it that you think homosexuals have it so bad at the moment?

[CrossCuT]

She has stated her college is one of the most intolerant universities in the country (As said by her atheist professor).

 

If the environment causes such levels of stress that youre worried about your job security and incredibly high levels of prejudice and discrimination, then leave.

[Aloysius]

in some of their own homes and highschools, for one.  the epidemic of homosexual suicide attempts speaks for itself.  but of course, those three things I listed should not be compared, I was comparing all three to the position of Catholics in todays society... but ultimately as I said all such comparisons tend to be a bit unhelpful.

[blazeingstar]

Unfortunately, there's not a great number of new Catholics....if there were, there would be more consequences (and fuller churches).  Those who are tossed from their homes often end up in general population shelters, or just figuring things out on their own.

[blazeingstar]

in some of their own homes and highschools, for one.  the epidemic of homosexual suicide attempts speaks for itself.  but of course, those three things I listed should not be compared, I was comparing all three to the position of Catholics in todays society... but ultimately as I said all such comparisons tend to be a bit unhelpful.

 

Unfortunately, when it comes to teen suicide, homosexuality is only one of the aspects....when you mix in those in their 20's other aspects come into play.   Certainly suicide is not solely a homosexual problem, but that with much deeper reaches.