I'm Coming Out

[NotreDame]

I'm not denying that, at times, conservative Catholics do face mild alienation from segments of the population.  That is certainly true.  What I find obnoxious is the attempt to draw a strong analogue between this mild alienation and the homophobia and legal discrimination that many gay people face today. 

 

I need to find a new word for tedious... or you could just quit making me use it.

[blazeingstar]

I'm not denying that, at times, conservative Catholics do face mild alienation from segments of the population.  That is certainly true.  What I find obnoxious is the attempt to draw a strong analogue between this mild alienation and the homophobia and legal discrimination that many gay people face today. 

 

Except for in my workplace ---and the 3-5 that I've been in homosexuality is openly embraced, all insurance and educational benefits are offered to said couples. 

 

What is not acceptable is religion and the practice of which, except for maybe the one "cool" person who follows Islam.  Christianity is seen as the product of a delusional, childish mind and Catholics are the cream of the crop as not only are they childish, but they "believe" in childabuse and male oppression.

 

You haven't even commented on the few incidence that I have offered....and the fact still is that the snarkiness in the south and their disbelief that Catholics are Christians is not similar at all to the way that things are.

 

Perhaps things are not so bad in the south.  However, in the very liberal Northeast things are different.  And just a point of fact, that the Governor of NY has openly attacked Catholic belifs and called them radical....like anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage and pro-wepon and told them that they have no place in NY. 

 

Really, when you say that Catholics "only face" mild alienation, you sound ignorant of the many things that are going on in the northeast and all over the United States.  Things have gotten worse in the past decade or so, in particular the past 5 years. 

[CrossCuT]

... not like the title of the thread was already a reference to another topic or anything... :whistle:

 

:hehe2:

[beatitude]

I'm not denying that, at times, conservative Catholics do face mild alienation from segments of the population.  That is certainly true.  What I find obnoxious is the attempt to draw a strong analogue between this mild alienation and the homophobia and legal discrimination that many gay people face today. 

 

Last week I was at a radical feminist conference where I spoke on a panel on women and religion. The panel proceeding mine was led by a group of lesbian asylum seekers who had become refugees on account of their sexuality and were now speaking of the discrimination (both homophobic and racist) they now experience in their place of refuge. One of them was a woman whom our group had successfully clawed back from a deportation flight only a few weeks ago. We had women flooding the airline with e-mails and phone calls about the danger she would be in back in her home country, and when the Border Agency officials conducted her to the aircraft the airline personnel refused to take her on board. To my surprise, tears came leaking out of my eyes when I heard that the flight had left without her, because I honestly hadn't expected the protest to do anything. I have never felt relief like that, or elation - the sensation that awful stuff happens but sometimes you can actually do something to stop it.

 

Last week she stood in front of our group and talked about how the (male) officials processing her asylum case had demanded video footage of her and her girlfriend having sex to 'prove' that she was a real lesbian. They will accept this as evidence where they won't accept testimony from community groups. Hers isn't an isolated case. Desperate refugee women are being exploited by certain officials to provide porn, basically - and as she pointed out, it is only possible for them to do this because the social climate makes it possible. It occurs to me that if there had been an outcry as vocal as the outcry against gay marriage, this might not be happening.

 

Then it was time for my panel, and I spoke about my experiences as a Catholic feminist, as I had been invited to do. Many of the women in that room were very anti-Catholic (including a fellow panelist, an ex-Catholic turned atheist). I did not feel hugely welcome, but at least I was there, speaking - at the invitation of the atheist organiser, no less. Sometimes it is uncomfortable for me to speak but no one is muffling my voice. Sometimes the snap judgments that people make are hurtful and unfair. But no government gatekeeper is asking me to degrade and demean myself in order to 'prove' what I am so that I will be entitled to basic safety. That is the difference. It staggers me when people don't see it.

 

I have had sneering remarks about my ashes before. I'll live.

[Luigi]

... not like the title of the thread was already a reference to another topic or anything... :whistle:

 

She started her own thread rather than hijacking someone else's thread to focus on herself. 

 

that's the way you're supposed to do it. 

[blazeingstar]

Last week I was at a radical feminist conference where I spoke on a panel on women and religion. The panel proceeding mine was led by a group of lesbian asylum seekers who had become refugees on account of their sexuality and were now speaking of the discrimination (both homophobic and racist) they now experience in their place of refuge. One of them was a woman whom our group had successfully clawed back from a deportation flight only a few weeks ago. We had women flooding the airline with e-mails and phone calls about the danger she would be in back in her home country, and when the Border Agency officials conducted her to the aircraft the airline personnel refused to take her on board. To my surprise, tears came leaking out of my eyes when I heard that the flight had left without her, because I honestly hadn't expected the protest to do anything. I have never felt relief like that, or elation - the sensation that awful stuff happens but sometimes you can actually do something to stop it.

 

Last week she stood in front of our group and talked about how the (male) officials processing her asylum case had demanded video footage of her and her girlfriend having sex to 'prove' that she was a real lesbian. They will accept this as evidence where they won't accept testimony from community groups. Hers isn't an isolated case. Desperate refugee women are being exploited by certain officials to provide porn, basically - and as she pointed out, it is only possible for them to do this because the social climate makes it possible. It occurs to me that if there had been an outcry as vocal as the outcry against gay marriage, this might not be happening.

 

Then it was time for my panel, and I spoke about my experiences as a Catholic feminist, as I had been invited to do. Many of the women in that room were very anti-Catholic (including a fellow panelist, an ex-Catholic turned atheist). I did not feel hugely welcome, but at least I was there, speaking - at the invitation of the atheist organiser, no less. Sometimes it is uncomfortable for me to speak but no one is muffling my voice. Sometimes the snap judgments that people make are hurtful and unfair. But no government gatekeeper is asking me to degrade and demean myself in order to 'prove' what I am so that I will be entitled to basic safety. That is the difference. It staggers me when people don't see it.

 

I have had sneering remarks about my ashes before. I'll live.

 

I'm sorry that those women faced that.  However, There are plenty of CHRISTIANS who cannot be Christian in today's world.  I am very close to the immigrant community from Indonesia.  They are in a very hard spot being in the northeast as they are seen as dirty, unwanted, and even with a master's degree in a needed occupation have trouble getting work.  But, as my friend's mom states it's better than death.   My friend often cries beucase all she wants is to go back to visit...not to stay..but to hold her cousin in her arms.  However, even FB communication has to be minimal

 

Again, to claim that only homosexuals face this treatment is very nieve and uneducated.  There are hundreds of thousands of persecuted Christians in the world...if we want to talk about the global persecution of peoples.
 

[beatitude]

I'm sorry that those women faced that.  However, There are plenty of CHRISTIANS who cannot be Christian in today's world.  I am very close to the immigrant community from Indonesia.  They are in a very hard spot being in the northeast as they are seen as dirty, unwanted, and even with a master's degree in a needed occupation have trouble getting work.  But, as my friend's mom states it's better than death.   My friend often cries beucase all she wants is to go back to visit...not to stay..but to hold her cousin in her arms.  However, even FB communication has to be minimal

 

Again, to claim that only homosexuals face this treatment is very nieve and uneducated.  There are hundreds of thousands of persecuted Christians in the world...if we want to talk about the global persecution of peoples.
 

 

I didn't claim that only gay people face this treatment. I am involved with Aid to the Church in Need and various other Christian groups in the Middle East (and for what it's worth, I think they would raise a few eyebrows at the things that Catholics on Phatmass try to construe as persecution or suffering). I am not trying to set up some kind of competition between gay people worldwide and Christians worldwide (not least because I am aware that gay Christians exist). I gave specific examples of female refugees being asked to provide pornography for the titillation of male officials as an example of how homophobia in this society compounds an already precarious situation.

 

I also feel quite confident that a post about the hardships faced by persecuted Christians wouldn't lead people here to immediately start mentioning other persecuted groups. Any of the threads about gay experiences on Phatmass, however, seem to very quickly devolve into, "But my workplace is so liberal and gay people get insurance benefits and people say mean things about Catholicism!" or, as in this case, spark an alternative 'coming out' thread. Why is it impossible to face up to discrimination against gay people without having to add qualifiers?

[blazeingstar]

I didn't claim that only gay people face this treatment. I am involved with Aid to the Church in Need and various other Christian groups in the Middle East (and for what it's worth, I think they would raise a few eyebrows at the things that Catholics on Phatmass try to construe as persecution or suffering). I am not trying to set up some kind of competition between gay people worldwide and Christians worldwide (not least because I am aware that gay Christians exist). I gave specific examples of female refugees being asked to provide pornography for the titillation of male officials as an example of how homophobia in this society compounds an already precarious situation.

 

I also feel quite confident that a post about the hardships faced by persecuted Christians wouldn't lead people here to immediately start mentioning other persecuted groups. Any of the threads about gay experiences on Phatmass, however, seem to very quickly devolve into, "But my workplace is so liberal and gay people get insurance benefits and people say mean things about Catholicism!" or, as in this case, spark an alternative 'coming out' thread. Why is it impossible to face up to discrimination against gay people without having to add qualifiers?

 

I didn't say what was happening there was right, but just that there is very real elements of persecution to those in the US who identify with a religion, and very real hatred.

 

FYI there are many female religious communities in the united states that have a soft ban on airline travel for their sisters because of several demeaning and disgusting TSA incidents where they were overtly sexualized.  No, not the same as porn, but again, a very scary thing for any sister, young or old.

 

 

It's because that in general, in most of the northeast homosexuals are NOT persecuted, but rather welcomed.  It's because a photographer CAN say that they will not do Catholic weddings but cannot say they will not do homosexual weddings.  I know, I've been shopping for wedding photographers.  Many refuse to shoot inside a Catholic Church because of their beliefs....yet there have been several Catholic/Christian photographers run out of business because they don't want to shoot a homosexual civil ceremony.  Why is that ok?  I'm pretty sure that'd define the Christian/Catholics as the persecuted ones, not the homosexuals.

 

I'm sorry that you fail to see that this isn't just a big boo-boo and hurt feelings, but a deeper tide.  Catholics were called extremists for their BASIC beliefs towards life and liberty and told they had no place in New York State.  I mean, really?  That's ok with you?  The governor of the state saying that Catholics don't belong there?  Just because a politician from another state said something about homosexuals dosn't mean we don't have a REAL problem.

 

Quite frankly, in some places it is a big deal to make it known that one is a practicing Catholic...and it can be very intimidating when they have been demonized.

Edited March 6, 2014 by blazeingstar

[Lilllabettt]

I have had sneering remarks about my ashes before. I'll live.

 

So. That's ignorant.

 

I wonder if anyone has ever responded to your struggle that way.

"You'll live."

Isn't that edifying.

Honestly, the level of arrogance and lack of awareness required to mock another person's experience is astonishing.

 

This is the special compassion and tolerance of liberal kool-aid.

But drink down ideology of any kind and you will spout forth nonsense with zero whiff of irony.

 

Micro-aggression of the day

 

Guy reading autobio aloud: "My parents are a contradiction. Basically good and loving, yet adhering catholics."

[Lilllabettt]

Never mind  ---

the Boss propped my OP, my day is made.

All nanny goats feel free to spin your wheels.

[NotreDame]

Beatitude / Blazingstar... It's funny to see you two arguing because when I go through threads quickly it's tough to tell you apart because your names both start with "B" and you both have sunsets as your profile pics.  I always need to take a double-take to be sure who is who.

[beatitude]

So. That's ignorant.

 

I wonder if anyone has ever responded to your struggle that way.

"You'll live."

Isn't that edifying.

Honestly, the level of arrogance and lack of awareness required to mock another person's experience is astonishing.

 

I compared the sneering I experienced for wearing ashes to the situations of other women who have literally faced the possibility of death (and still are facing it, should they be deported). It's true enough. Nasty as specific people's unkindness can be to deal with, I will live.

 

With the title of your thread you are clearly encouraging people to draw a parallel between your experiences of going to campus with an ashen cross on your forehead and the experiences that Fran spoke about recently - the damage and pain that being closeted in her church community did to her, the fear of rejection in the place that matters to her most. For a hardly insignificant number of gay people, 'coming out' can mean no longer being welcome in their homes or even being left homeless. It seems to take a great lack of awareness to insinuate, as you have with the title of this thread, that your experiences of going to class with the ashen cross are remotely comparable. Whether it's arrogant or not, I don't know. I'm not in your head, I can't see your reasons for making a conflation, I am not about to pass judgment on your motives. However, I do find it irritating that you seem to want to use any post that doesn't accept/endorse the comparison as proof that you're this misunderstood martyr.
 

This is the special compassion and tolerance of liberal kool-aid.

But drink down ideology of any kind and you will spout forth nonsense with zero whiff of irony.

 

 

I don't know what this means.

Edited March 6, 2014 by beatitude

[FutureCarmeliteClaire]

http://imgur.com/wvqKwVW

 

Edited: because for some reason I can't post a direct image.

Edited March 6, 2014 by FutureCarmeliteClaire

[blazeingstar]

I compared the sneering I experienced for wearing ashes to the situations of two other women, one of whom has literally faced the possibility of death (and still is facing it, should she be deported). It's true enough. Nasty as specific people's unkindness can be to deal with, I will live.

 

With the title of your thread you are clearly encouraging people to draw a parallel between your experiences of going to campus with an ashen cross on your forehead to the experiences that Fran spoke about recently - the damage and pain that being closeted in her church community did to her, the fear of rejection in the place that matters to her most. For a hardly insignificant number of gay people, 'coming out' can mean no longer being welcome in their homes or even being left homeless. It seems to take a great lack of awareness to insinuate, as you have with the title of this thread, that your experiences of going to class with the ashen cross are remotely comparable. Whether it's arrogant or not, I don't know. I'm not in your head, I can't see your reasons for making a conflation, I am not about to pass judgment on your motives. However, I do find it irritating that you seem to want to use any post that doesn't endorse your comparison as proof that you're this misunderstood martyr.
 

 

I don't know what this means.

 

 

First off, I didn't start the thread, nor did I get ashes.  I don't think that people "misunderstand" Catholics/Christians at all, they know exactly what we stand for, and they unequivocally hate it.

 

Just wanted to mention about immigration--I checked with my cousin...for a heterosexual couple without a child who's relationship is coming into question, proof of sexual activity is sometimes requested...so it's not *that* unreasonable that it would also be asked of a homosexual couple.  Its actually why she's living in Germany with her English husband...she wouldn't do it.  It's invasive and horrible and if you don't like it then change the law for ALL couples.

 

 

Your arrogance is in that you won't see that there are persecuted Christians/Catholics in the world who may still suffer here in the US.   As I stated, I have immigrant friends from Indonesia who face death due to their Catholicism in Indonesia, and here in the US face unemployment.  However, unemployment is better than death.

 

 

 

You also seem to have no idea that becoming Catholic in the bible belt or Morman country can do the EXACT same thing that you are talking about.  One of my youth minister friends who married a phillipino only recently (in the past 5 years) has had contact with is evangelical family after he became Catholic decades ago.  Do we need to campaign for awareness of that?

 

 

I was very involved and loved my first workplace, I had great friends who I ate lunch with every day, and even did things with on the weekends....however after 2 years of great relationship and keeping my conservative beliefs to myself, it suddenly got out that I was a practicing Catholic.  Then and there I lost those friends and life was never the same at that job.  So yes, I get it, and yes, it does happen.  So tell me, ye keeper of who can have what emotions, how that is any different than what happened to Fran.  Because I can "change" being Catholic...well no, quite frankly, I can't  I'm Baptized and Confirmed...I can "feel" I'm not Catholic or convince myself I'm not, but I always will be Catholic, so I choose to live those beliefs...and take the consequences of them. 

 

I am not declaring proof that I'm a maryter but that there is a growing tide of anti-Christian, Anti-catholic behavior.  That it IS acceptible in New York for the acting GOVERNOR to say that Catholics are not welcome in his state, and that it is acceptable for photographers to deny Catholics photography but it is NOT acceptable to do the same to homosexuals.

 

You simply aren't acknowledging the deepening parallel between the intolerance for Christianity/Catholicism and being homosexual.
 

[Anastasia13]

It's perfectly possible to be opposed to gay rights for moral reasons.  It's just not possible to be opposed to them for any respectable moral reasons.  I understand that Catholic argument against gay rights.  It's just not anything that ought to be respected.  That's why I left the faith.  I'm not going to fight to limit somebody else's rights for reasons that I know deep down are farcical.  

 

Perhaps you should have considered being a libertarian instead. You can have your Catholic view of homosexual sex and tell the government to get out of people's pants.