What You Don't Know Can Hurt You

[IcePrincessKRS]

Correct. Science has not identified a single gene responsible for all of this...it is likely never going to because not all traits are a result of one switch or some black and white scale. But what we do know, is that it is genetic in some way. Thats how these things work; thats how everything works.

 

I dont know what science you read about, but these studies has nothing to do with moral judgment or any other sort of opinion extrapolation. Who is saying that any of this is a defect? Those are your words. In fact, science doesnt say that anything about the morality or right or wrong of  homosexuality, thats the church. 

 

So if you love your friends so much then dont tell them that they have defects...dont force them to live a life of suffering. Its not science doing this, its your faith. 

 

You're funny.

[CrossCuT]

I know :)

Edited August 28, 2014 by CrossCuT

[PhuturePriest]

internet people have no feelings.

 

[mod]Mature content. 7 day ban. - dUSt[/mod]

[Ice_nine]

I don't mind if people want to discuss the scientific whatnots behind various sexual phenomena, but this is probably not the thread.

 

dont force them to live a life of suffering. Its not science doing this, its your faith. 

 

The Christian life is a life of suffering. This doesn't mean we should needlessly pile on the sufferings onto our brothers and sisters, but we shouldn't tell them to just ditch the cross they're carrying. Even though that will make things easier in the short run, it's false compassion. It's much more difficult to help them shoulder their burden and face down their demons than to tell them to just take the path of least resistance.

 

 

[CrossCuT]

I am asking no one to ditch any cross they have. I was just commenting on the science because yes, science is cool. I did not, however, turn it into a moral narrative of right or wrong. Thats on you all. 

[Not The Philosopher]

I have a feeling that what we need is some sort of Gay Drama Thread where all the silly stuff can be quarantined so that threads like this won't get derailed by all the kudzu-like arguments that inevitably spring up whenever this topic is addressed.

[PhuturePriest]

I am asking no one to ditch any cross they have. I was just commenting on the science because yes, science is cool. I did not, however, turn it into a moral narrative of right or wrong. Thats on you all. 

 

Actually, yes, yes you did.

 

Correct. Science has not identified a single gene responsible for all of this...it is likely never going to because not all traits are a result of one switch or some black and white scale. But what we do know, is that it is genetic in some way. Thats how these things work; thats how everything works.

 

I dont know what science you read about, but these studies has nothing to do with moral judgment or any other sort of opinion extrapolation. Who is saying that any of this is a defect? Those are your words. In fact, science doesnt say that anything about the morality or right or wrong of  homosexuality, thats the church. 

 

So if you love your friends so much then dont tell them that they have defects...dont force them to live a life of suffering. Its not science doing this, its your faith. 

[Not The Philosopher]

Oh and Fran, props to you for reaching out to a kid in need.

[PhuturePriest]

Very beautiful, we've all made up.

 

Now can we go back to discussing how annoying Texans are?

[CrossCuT]

Actually, yes, yes you did.

 

Thats me saying that you can turn scientific studies into a moral compass. Thats the exact opposite of turning the conversation into a moral narrative. 

[Ice_nine]

I am asking no one to ditch any cross they have. I was just commenting on the science because yes, science is cool. I did not, however, turn it into a moral narrative of right or wrong. Thats on you all. 

 

I just don't know how else I could have interpreted "that's your faith doing that [causing suffering]"

 

edit: but it's not that important I guess, don't want to hijack

Edited August 28, 2014 by Ice_nine

[Credo in Deum]

I have a feeling that what we need is some sort of Gay Drama Thread where all the silly stuff can be quarantined so that threads like this won't get derailed by all the kudzu-like arguments that inevitably spring up whenever this topic is addressed.

[franciscanheart]

No, but he has studied the science of it and is a renowned speaker. Show me scientific proof, and I'll believe you. As of yet, there is nothing. But again, it really doesn't matter. It's not like it's theologically problematic if people are born gay or not, so why the hostility?

1. Your once possibly-endearing ignorance has become, despite your protestation, quite unappetizing and, frankly, obnoxious. Your attitude is unbecoming and it will alienate most of us faster than you expect. We can deal with ignorance but add ego and most of us are out.
 
2. You may place the onus on me -- or gay people everywhere -- if you so choose, but this is more telling of your own shortcomings than it is of the invalidity of the scientific discoveries that continue to happen about what makes us different. You are entitled to your opinions and beliefs; no one here is suggesting otherwise. You absolutely get to perpetuate in your own mind and in your own family the beliefs that science continues disprove. So yes, absolutely: ignorance is your right. Do not expect, though, that people are going to stand down why you try to make light of a subject which is not only deeply personal to many of us, but which affects the lives of practically every person in the world today in some way. This is not just a fluffy theological discussion and by injecting yourself as you did, you invited the response you are receiving.

3. Prove to me that you chose to be straight. I owe you nothing, nor do I need to prove to you that I was born and developed with a natural* inclination toward romantic and sexual attraction to others of my sex.

*natural meaning it occurred biologically without outside input or reinforcement
 
4. Again? You didn't mention that it didn't matter until someone challenged your decision to interject in the conversation in the manner you did. Apparently it matters; if it didn't matter, why would you need to interject yourself into an otherwise pleasant conversation?

5. The hostility is in direct proportion to your lack of respect. Check yourself.
 

Sometimes it's wise to bite your tongue and see how conversations play out. I don't often find it useful to tell gay people how they likely did or did not (for lack of a better term) develop their gayness. I doubt Franny would have responded with "Oh, I was definitely born gay." She's always quite bluntly honest and probably would have responded with phrasing similar to how the question was rephrased "I began experiencing these attractions as a  child" or some such thing.
 
Then again, maybe I just know Franny well enough to know how she's likely to respond and I have unrealistic expectations of how other people should conduct conversations.

Well said, Boozer, and I appreciate the level of respect you give me -- always. You are right: I almost always frame it in such a way as to reflect on my experience as I remember it, not as I have determined in my mind for it to have occurred. Ultimately, how it came to be (too many carrots, starting with peaches instead of pears, "abnormal" structuring of the female brain, etc) is not significant in my life. What is significant is respect and love. What is, is. And what isn't, isn't to be mourned. There is a time and a place for all of that, but as a community, what we need to do is focus on how to love and support and educate. That was the initial purpose of this thread, after all...
 

Yes, this seems incredibly compelling, except the study itself admits it might happen in the womb or in early infancy. They're not certain.
 
But again, it doesn't really matter, as I have said since my very first post.

 They aren't certain. Yet. But science is continually discovering new things. On the other side of this, why does it matter to you if someone's chemistry goes awry in utero or in infancy? The bottom line is that something changes -- something is different. Does this variance in biology affect your ability to love? Does it somehow damage them in a way you cannot reconcile? What is your beef REALLY? Dig deep, I'm done with the cowardice.
 

Just thinking out loud here: I don't think that anyone is born gay because I don't think babies have sexual attractions.

 So humans are not innately sexual?
 

I don't think anyone really understands that we're literally arguing over nothing. I interjected an opinion by someone else I had heard speak that day. This is an open phorum and I'm free to do so, especially considering it was never said before then that this is apparently the most offensive thing you can do.
 
This is an internet forum. As the great and powerful Dust said, posts shouldn't affect you.
 
Have a good day

 What's the most offensive thing you can do? Throw around unnecessary ideas for the sake of throwing around unnecessary ideas? Your interjection did nothing to add to the conversation that was being had, nor did it foster any sense of community. Your post, whether you choose to recognize it or not, was not only poorly informed, it actively retracted from the good will that was being shared. The very purpose of this thread was to challenge people to be more mindful of their ignorances and more attentive to their words.
 
"Posts shouldn't affect you." Some posts, he's right, should not shake you to your core. I can assure you that none of your posts have. That said, your words have weight -- ignorant or not. When you insert yourself into a conversation the way you have, throwing around unhelpful and uninformed opinions with zero regard for the effects they might have, you are inviting a certain amount of displeasure and risking the ruffling of feathers.
 
If you had inserted yourself into a conversation about a prepared food made from milk curdled by the action of cultures, we might not be having this conversation.
 
Until you understand the magnitude of the topic at hand, it may be best to excuse yourself gracefully. If you choose to stay, you now know what you're dealing with. The ball is in your court.
 

Oh and Fran, props to you for reaching out to a kid in need.

Thanks, dude. It helps me almost more than it helps the people who come to me for understanding. It's amesome to not be alone -- especially in something so heavy.

[IcePrincessKRS]

I don't mind if people want to discuss the scientific whatnots behind various sexual phenomena, but this is probably not the thread.

Exactly. Take it elsewhere.

The Christian life is a life of suffering. This doesn't mean we should needlessly pile on the sufferings onto our brothers and sisters, but we shouldn't tell them to just ditch the cross they're carrying. Even though that will make things easier in the short run, it's false compassion. It's much more difficult to help them shoulder their burden and face down their demons than to tell them to just take the path of least resistance.

Yes.

[franciscanheart]

... It's much more difficult to help them shoulder their burden and face down their demons ...

One "sappy" thing in response to this:

 

Boozer (aka IcePrincessKRS) has shown me, almost more than anyone else in my life, what it means to be a friend by doing exactly what you have said. Morality (in this issue or any other) has never been a point of division for us, because we are both practicing and faithful Catholics. She has never asked me to be anything other than what I am, nor made me feel inferior because I was coming up short in any department. My sexuality has never been a source of bitterness in our relationship.

 

Her tireless and unwavering support of me as I navigate the challenges and disappointments of life is humbling and awe-inspiring. She directs me to God not just by the words she says (keep the good stuff coming, boozer) but by the love she shows me in her actions.

 

Ice challenges me to be better every day than I was the day before, and she picks up my cross with me when it becomes particularly heavy.

 

ALL OF THAT SAID, I know that helping me to shoulder this burden (and many others which I will not mention here, now or ever) is not always easy for her. She has struggled for the "right" words, and prayed for me so very much when I was making decisions that threatened my connection to God. It must have been very hard to stand back and let me live my life and walk my own path, all the while encouraging me gently as she does. And you know what? It's not lost on me. The amount of effort it takes to be in relationship with me is not unbeknownst to me, and I am never shy about making that clear to her or anyone else.

 

It is nearly impossible to quantify in words what that woman has done for me by showing up as my faithful, Catholic, loving friend. She is the face of Christ to me in my life, and that is no small thing.

 

 

(I'm tired and rambly and I luff Boozer. So sue me.)