What You Don't Know Can Hurt You

[Aloysius]

anyway I very much agree that the church should distance itself from civil marriages more... but currently the Church, not in any kind of teaching per se or anything but in its actual canon law and general mens regarding these matters, very much envisions a collaboration between civil and canon law in the marriage ceremony.  of course since canon law says to comply with the provisions of civil law and have it recognized by civil law, well if civil law were changed to do away with marriage licenses that would be a different story.

 

as regards the whole black people thing... it's a very strange comparison.  of course homosexuality and blackness come with different kinds of struggles in society.  black people were often discriminated against by white strangers and they could go back to their family for comfort... a good many gay people are persecuted by their own families, kicked out of their homes, and shunned.  skin color is certainly a different kind of struggle, with its own particular problems some of which are worse than gay peoples' problems, but from a certain perspective some of gay people's problems are as bad or worse in other ways.  the problem with that song is it turned it into a sort of persecution-off... a contest to see who's the more persecuted.  that 'how dare you compare it to our struggle' thing is ludicrous though, because while it's not exactly the same, there are parallels.  

[Maggyie]

Funny, people decide based on dress, hairstyle, and mannerisms that a lot of my gay friends are gay. Even if that never happened, though, a black person's struggle with skin color would not negate the homosexual's struggle with being gay.

 

There are effeminate people who are gay and there are also MANY people who are not the slightest bit flamboyant which I'm sure you know.

 

The fact remains that your experiences, whether buying an ice cream cone, going for a jog in the park or waiting at a bus stop in a sea of straight people is different and easier than the experience of a black person doing the same things in a sea of white people. The rap (which I though was kind of lame) was just pointing that truth out.

 

Kind of a quit your whining thing. Let's compare victimhood status. Mine is worse. etc.

[PhuturePriest]

There are effeminate people who are gay and there are also MANY people who are not the slightest bit flamboyant which I'm sure you know.

 

The fact remains that your experiences, whether buying an ice cream cone, going for a jog in the park or waiting at a bus stop in a sea of straight people is different and easier than the experience of a black person doing the same things in a sea of white people. The rap (which I though was kind of lame) was just pointing that truth out.

 

Kind of a quit your whining thing. Let's compare victimhood status. Mine is worse. etc.

 

I've never thought that comparing victimhoods is a healthy practice. Both gay people and black people are discriminated against a lot, and that's what matters. Both should be major issues. We shouldn't compare and contrast who has it worse, however, because that simply doesn't bring anything but division and competition.

[organwerke]

I've read with interest this thread and was very hesitant to post anything even because I'm not so sure about what to say.

Also, I am very hesitant due to some of my previous phatmass experiences but this is another subject.

As for now I will say this. I am currently living in a European city that is a sort of "Gay Paradise". It is so full of gay persons that sometimes you feel to be a minority. So it is also very normal to see them also kissing in public, walking very closed together erc.

Well, I have to admit that I feel a bit uncomfortable with it -but at the same time I am quite appalled learning that there are places where services are refused to people based on their sexual identity!

The other curious thing is that -nonetheless- this is a city with also a very big and significative presence of the Catholic Church, with a very long and important history of faith through the centuries  until our days. There are plenty of beautiful and magnificent churches, many religious vocations (I have three personal friends who entered the SSVM only in one year!) and so it is very strange and quite particular to see these both faces of the city together (of course it is not that this big amount of gay poeple is related to the Church's presence in any way but to a particular and specific identity this city has built in the years). 

In my original country too culture is becoming more and more open to gay people but this is not true everywhere. Even if -I repeat- I am a bit uncomfortable seeing so many gay couples where I live, the same I am much more uncomfortable thinking to some persons I personally knew from my birth city who suffered so much for their homosexual identity, to the point that two of them attempted suicide: one failed but always struggled with psycological problems, the other one, who was always refused by his family as a shame, unfortunately succeeded killing himself, and it was really really sad.

Sorry if I have ruined the thread with this story, anyway I haven't anything else to add at this point. Maybe later, I have to think more about it.

[franciscanheart]

I think those stories are important, Organwerke. It happens a lot -- more, I think, than many realize.

[organwerke]

yeah, that too. but my point was you don't know what its like to be a faithful Catholic (with SSA or not) and cling to holy mother church  on this one despite everything else in your whole world telling you to give in.  You're not paying the price for fidelity to a very difficult and unpopular teaching.

 

You were either never on board to begin with, or you caved.  So you don't know the catholic struggle in this area. So what do you have to say about it?

 

So, actually, there is a thing I wanted to say. I knew I wanted to reply to this post when I read it but then I forgot to do it.

There is an idea that I often see here and there, especially when speaking about chastity (not necessairly related to homosexuality).

And so the idea is: it is a so big struggle to keep chaste, to remain faithful to Church's teaching in this world so liberal.

Now, I surely agree that there is a struggle in this area and there Always will be, until the Death -this is our nature.

But also: are we really sure we are witnessing and doing a good apostolate this way? I mean, probably many of these persons think into themsleves(and I do not want to exclude myself): there are so many pulsions, so many occasions, and it is so a hard struggle, so difficult to resist...I admit that maybe I would like very much to give satisfaction to my body but I am catholic and I can't...and so maybe I finally end my struggle in two ways: 1.I can't win my struggle and later I am so sad because I fell and can't find the inner peace for days until I can reach a confessor

2 I "win" the temptation and I am happy thinking that God will reward me one day for this, but after all I am not so completely in peace with myself and my body...and maybe neither with God, after all!

Honestly, it is a long time that I too am trying to find a point, a "universal truth" about this, a deep experience of God that gives me the true peace as only the true thruth can give. I am not saying I have reached that point, but the fact is that chastity, in my opinion, should be considered as a beautiful thing that gives me a lot of peace, and, also, as a thing that I can ask God and obtain from him without the need to tell Others who are not chaste "you don't know how hard it is to live this way", with a sort of bitter anger in my heart (and maybe a little envy for those who don't struggle too?)

I know for example that there are also two theories about virtue. There is the theory that says that when there is a harder struggle, the virtue has a higher value. There is the other one intead that says exactly the hopposite, because it tells that if there is little struggle, this means that virtue has become as a habit, as a second nature (I think Garrigou-Lagrange supports this theory) and so the virtue is possessed at a higher degree.

Well, even if I don't know what to choose, because at times I support the first one and at times the second one, I think that there is only one theory that simply says that the virtue is given by God, it is a grace, and it is not a matter of merit, in the sense that even if I surely have to do my part, I haven't to worry about how good or how bad I am, if I am better or worse of the poor people who don't struggle, or if I sometimes would like to be as those who don't struggle because the struggle is so hard...

I would like to simply be as those who live and possesse the grace and the virtue so naturally that their heart becomes Always lager and larger and can love with Greater love those who struggle because they know how much they suffer far from the light and the grace and the peace of God.

Luckily I know persons who are these way -both married or religious- and they are my model in life, those I want and try to imitate.

[organwerke]

Well, re-reading my previous post I think that maybe I have a little derailed the thread in another direction. 

Anyway, the core of my thought was that I find difficult to accept a christian faith who only insists on struggles and crosses even if of course the cross is Always present.

It is, in my opinion, something psycologically insane to believe and live this way, something that, soon or later, can lead the mind to absurd and drammatical points...as the one I have described (in particular the first one, who, luckily, didn't succed in suicide -the other one was a bit different situation). This person I knew couldn't accept his identity, his inclinations beacuse he was so strongly catholic that he didn't want to accept or admit many things of himself, and so he became so divided into himself and his mind that he had his nerves broken for years and also arrived to attempt suicide.

Honestly, I really don't think this is a good and sane faith to proclame, nor I think God wants this for us.

[the171]

There are effeminate people who are gay and there are also MANY people who are not the slightest bit flamboyant which I'm sure you know.

The fact remains that your experiences, whether buying an ice cream cone, going for a jog in the park or waiting at a bus stop in a sea of straight people is different and easier than the experience of a black person doing the same things in a sea of white people. The rap (which I though was kind of lame) was just pointing that truth out.

Kind of a quit your whining thing. Let's compare victimhood status. Mine is worse. etc.

Have you seen the crap going on in Russia? Even in Louisiana there is definite discrimination based on what sexuality you are perceived to have.

[CrossCuT]

To think that being gay/homosexual is as distinctly evident as being black, thats a little extreme.

 

I agree that people have stereotypes in their head and attribute them to certain characteristics as well as the fact that we KNOW homosexuals are discriminated against for these characteristics, but I wouldnt go so far as to say its as plainly evident as race.

 

[LittleWaySoul]

Yes.

Yes.

 

I have answered both, I think, in previous answers to other questions but I'll try to put a brief review here for your sake and the sake of others who may be jumping in at the end of this thread. (There's a lot to read in the last nine pages! I would blame no one.)

 

I do feel it's important for us to come out and say, "I'm gay and it's okay!" I feel it's important for several reasons. I'll try to bullet point them below.

 

• Other people need to know they aren't alone. People have a very deep need to feel understood and connected. Coming out is the easiest way for other gay people to find you.
• Everyone needs the opportunity to know gay people in order to begin understanding the struggles facing our population -- Catholic or not. If you see us, we become human, hopefully, and it becomes more difficult to rely solely on intellectual argument or theological theory, concept, whatever.
• It is especially important, in my opinion, that faithful Catholics and other gay Christians come out -- if for no other reason than the world gets to see that it is possible, and that we aren't so different. I can't tell you how many friends have talked about gay people to and around me, with no idea whatsoever that I am gay. I have instructed them on Catholic teaching regarding homosexuality, helped them to love more fully, and encouraged them to be open-minded, all while staying closeted. Imagine what impact it will have for them to know all of that solid Catholic love came from a gay person!

 

Coming out has not always been an understandable option for me. It's only been in maybe the last year that I started to come to terms with how my silence harms things. If people are not forced to face the humanity behind the label, we will never see change. If my suffering helps to do that, I am game. Totally and completely. The gay Catholic that was born this morning does not deserve to experience the things I have experienced. So I will be out, proud, and loud until things start to change.

 

I may be repeating myself by saying this, but here it is anyway: I think being out as a faithful Catholic woman who happens to be gay is also helpful when it comes to discussing political policy, cultural influences, etc. I am both gay and Catholic, so I feel like I have a pretty unique view. The more of us there are, the better we understand. But if we all stay in the closet, how can we help? We can't.

EVERYTHING ABOUT THIS POST.

 

That is all. :love:

[LittleWaySoul]

I love how this thread is turning out. You guys are so awesome and I love you. God bless! :smile3:

[Ice_nine]

I don't want to give the impression that I fully endorse the whole pedophile comparison, just trying to show how people who use it may not be necessarily be coming from a place of hate.

 

It's a comparison I've probably used before (I don't think I've ever said it to a gay person idk) but in a constant effort to try to be more compassionate I refrain from using it nowadays. In fact I usually refrain from debates at all because we're not really dealing with logic we're dealing with people and feelings and debates can become fruitless really quick. I've already expended a bunch of energy in this thread rather carelessly. Sincere apologies if I offended anyone.

 

 

Anyhow FH, thanks for answering my question about the need to identify. I'm not sure I agree, but I'm a weird chick so not agreeing with me is generally a good choice. In any case, if it works for you then that's what's important. I find your way of dealing with this to be really inspiring, particularly post #173. Through all the BS that surrounds these debates your love of God and understanding of carrying this cross is really profound.

 

In summation, keep doin' yo thing girl

 

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Ah! I was unfamiliar with the terms, but yes: been there, done that. More tomorrow. So, so sleepy.

 

 

 

Dude. This wins Whackiest Table Post Ever award for me.

 

Yes, I am gay. I am not involved sexually with women -- not that it's any of your business. I am not, therefore, boasting about lesbian sex. Thank you for your admonition, though. Keep up the good work?

 

You still haven't said which gay you are. That's all i'm asking. All i got (and sorry i haven't read every single post i got lost) is you are not sexually involved with women and that you are more romantically  attracted to women. There is nothing wrong with romance with the same sex, it's called best friends. I get romantic with male friends d&m style and they freak out, i even say i love you, some freak some don't at the i love you. I hope i find a wife or God sends me one that is more romantically attracted to women rather than men, a wife being the other way around would be trouble for me. Pyjama parties are great. But anyhow back to the question, which Gay are you? i don't get it, sorry. Whatever Gay you are though i understand, be quick to keep your six shooter in it's sheath and not fire randomly at suspected enemies, not that you have but i sense you have pulled the old six shooter out and are ready to shoot. And please don't sarcastically passive aggressive keep up the good work stuff at me. And no i'm not going to shower you with rose petals because your Gay or even if you win a gold medal at the olympics.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Your question should (And most likely will) be disregarded, because this is a very serious discussion, and your question is stereotypical and non-serious. Dressing colorfully doesn't make you gay, it means you like color. Whether FranciscanHeart does like dressing colorfully or not means nothing, because it has nothing to do with the topic of the thread or being gay.

 

Do you know the meanings of the word Gay FP, and i'm being very serious. Don't be so quick to judge my demeanour or intentions, BROTHER! For your benefit FP one of the 3 meanings of the word Gay is colourful. By the way i have nothing against homosexuals in truth i love them.

[Guest]

To think that being gay/homosexual is as distinctly evident as being black, thats a little extreme.

I agree that people have stereotypes in their head and attribute them to certain characteristics as well as the fact that we KNOW homosexuals are discriminated against for these characteristics, but I wouldnt go so far as to say its as plainly evident as race.

agreed not even close...God hates homosexual acts and the Bible says He hates it worse then other sins... Prayers for gay people who are harassed but it's not comparable...I liked Bizzles rap although he could of did a little better job conveying his point and with a little more charity... Edited February 27, 2014 by Guest