What You Don't Know Can Hurt You

[brandelynmarie]

Fran, you are a brave daughter of God. :) Just wanted say that....

[Ice_nine]

I'm sorry, what? Seriously? Pedophiles? This is exactly the kind of ignorant, hateful poo I can't stand. I'll never apologize for my disgust at someone suggesting I'm like a pedophile. There is a difference between falling in love with another adult person who is mature and evolved and capable of returning love. There is a difference between establishing an adult relationship and connection with another adult and molesting children. Yeah, there's a difference. And it's a big one. I loathe the idea that it's okay to compare the two. And yes, I lack respect for anyone who believes otherwise. Those are the people I will never be able to talk to. I cannot handle it. They disgust me.

 

 

It's probably not the most tactful way to say what he was saying and I veer from bringing up that point because it's usually perceived as offensive as possible (gay people are pretty much pedophiles). There are some people who believe that homosexuality and pedophilia are inextricably connected, and those people I would call ignorant at best perhaps hateful at worst. Let's not deal with them for now.

 

However, I think the point of the comparison is not that the two groups (homosexuals and pedophiles) are both predatory/harmful to others but I think it's to illustrate that just because you have no or little control over your inclinations doesn't make the actions that would flow from these inclinations to be OK. It can be taken as the more hateful "gays are just like pedophiles!!1!" but in this relativistic culture it is usually a more effective analogy because almost everybody thinks having sex with children is morally egregious (unlike other sexual behaviors e.g. polygamy, pre- and extra-marital sex etc) and I think the point is to get people to understand "see, here's a case where you believe being 'born that way' does not excuse a person from pursuing certain sexual ventures, albeit for different reasons). When the statement is not qualified carefully (and even when it is) it's really easy for it to sound really offensive so I would caution someone to throw it as a one-liner on a rap track.

 

 

Also, you are similar to a pedophile in certain ways, but so is everyone else. Depends on what point you're trying to illustrate. I'm a human, so are pedophiles. Pedophilia is a paraphilia and so is having a really intent foot fetish. God is similar to the Devil in that they are both supernatural beings whose intelligence far surpass the smartest homo sapiens. But there are crucial differences between God and the Devil and between being aroused by feet and being aroused by children. Sometimes people focus on differences other times it's the similarities but that shouldn't imply that two things are wholly opposite or that they're one in the same.

 

 

This is not to say you shouldn't be hurt by the comparison. You feel how you feel and that's that. And often times the ignorance and hate behind the comparison is real and not merely perceived, so I get the sensitivity. I wouldn't probably like being compared to a pedophile so often even if it was on legitimate grounds (like say Jane was a pedophile and physically I looked very similar to Jane so everyone was always telling me that "hey you look JUST like Jane zomg"). But I think this rapper dude (who is kinda wack imo) worded his point really terribly especially with the "and you're better how?"

[Aloysius]

While I understand the point of it, the whole analogy is ridiculously out of line in so many ways.  Firstly, the "born this way" argument isn't even really the thing homosexuals base anything on.  It's not like if you could convince them they weren't born that way all the sudden Ellen and Portia would break up and Neil Patrick Harris would turn into a real life version of Barney Stinson.  Heck, you could even invent a magic pill that cured them of their attractions and most would likely refuse to take it... that's the whole point of X Men: The Last Stand.

 

Anyway, the analogy fails further.  You could compare anyone who says they can't change something about themselves to a pedophile... "hey man, I don't like asparagus, I can't change, I've tried it many times, I just don't like it".... "then how are you any better than a pedophile?"... "man, I just don't like country music, I can't change no matter how many times I try to listen to it, I can't get into it"... "then how are you any better than a pedophile?"... sure here you're arguing that there's an immoral dimension to it--but that's the argument you have to make, the analogy is totally irrelevant from their perspective.

 

It's an analogy that's tapping into the worst kinds of associations and prejudices, even if it ostensibly denies them.  If you want to have an argument with a homosexual, you have to convince them that there's something wrong about what they do, get into a discussion about natural law and sexual morality, chastity, etc.  don't compare them to a pedophile--they already know why pedophilia is wrong-because minors are not capable of giving true consent and it is therefore inherently a form of rape and abuse.  That's why they hold pedophilia to be wrong... and you have no compelling argument for them that even comes close to an analogy for them about homosexuality.  come up with an argument about that and have that argument... the other thing is pointless, won't convince anyone of anything, and just serve to reinforce bad and baseless prejudices. 

[franciscanheart]

Someone hold my earrings. (Yes, they're studs, but mama doesn't fight in Tiffany's.) :annoyed:

[Winchester]

 

However, I think the point of the comparison is not that the two groups (homosexuals and pedophiles) are both predatory/harmful to others but I think it's to illustrate that just because you have no or little control over your inclinations doesn't make the actions that would flow from these inclinations to be OK.

 

 

Then here's an idea: Compare homosexual acts to other acts that don''t involve a predatory act. There are tons. Jacking off, for instance. There's one. But since most people who like to compare homosexual acts to acts of pedophilia probably masturbate like wild monkeys, they're not willing to do that.

 

A truly consensual sexual sin of any sort is not comparable to predatory sexual acts. 

 

I know why people make the comparison because I'm pretty sure I used to, but I was wrong. At some point, I got something resembling a heart. Luckily, no one bashed my throat in with a wiffleball bat, and so I survived to become less of a bastard.

[CrossCuT]

Also, you are similar to a pedophile in certain ways, but so is everyone else. Depends on what point you're trying to illustrate. I'm a human, so are pedophiles. 

 

[reminiscere]

All dogs have four legs; my cat has four legs. Therefore, my cat is a dog

 

Waka waka. Bunga bunga.

 

Tacos

 

Franciscans of the Immaculate

 

a2 +b2 = c2

 

Later y'all

[reminiscere]

P.S. It was Colonel Mustard in the library with the candlestick. I've left you more than a fair share of clues. Have you figured it out? 

 

xoxo Gossip Girl

 

P.P.S. Seriously end of thread hijack. 

[The Bus Station]

Nvm.

Edited February 26, 2014 by The Bus Station

[CrossCuT]

I have a question about a subject that has come up a few times in the past and even right now there is a thread relating to it.

 

Should gay/lesbian people who have committed themselves to a chaste life in order to remain faithful to the church be allowed to be priests, nuns, or religious? Do you think the fact that you are gay would somehow make you less able to fulfill that role in the church?

 

I hope that made sense. Or if I worded it this way: Does being gay make a person unfit for these roles? Even if they are 100% faithful to the church, live a chaste life, etc etc.

 

I would very much appreciate your perspective on this subject! I know what my thoughts are but again, they are not popular.

[Slappo]

I can appreciate where this might be more easily understood by you. But remember that you are thinking with your heterosexual brain in the context of your heterosexual experiences. I imagine you have plenty of relationships with women to whom you are not attracted or with whom you are not inclined to fall in love. I have plenty of relationships with heterosexual women and do not fall for them. Why? Because they are not gay. I have never once fallen for a straight woman. I may have been enamored. I may have had a "schoolgirl crush" or something resembling it. But it was never serious and never something that really stole my time or attention.

 

Yes and no. I have a lot of female co-workers, and we have some family friends that include women of course, but I do not have any social friends that are female that do not fall in the "family friends" category. Any female friend that I have is also a friend of my wife.

 

I'm not quite sure what the underlined has to do with my post, because that'd be like me saying I have plenty of relationships with homosexual women and do not fall for them because they are not straight and that I have never fallen for a homosexual woman. That doesn't say anything about my ability to fall in love with a co-worker or other female friend that I wouldn't be able to have though.

 

Is there a possibility that I would fall in love with a co-worker and have to cut off that relationship or maybe even change jobs? Certainly there is - and that could be painful on multiple levels, painful for my wife that it even happened, painful for me for the loss of the friendship, and painful for me for the need to change jobs, and possibly painful for my family for the paycut I might have to take to do it. The fact is that I spend as much if not more time with my co-workers than I do with my wife. I also have to be extremely cautious about how social my relationships with former co-workers become. I have to make sure that if I want to go out to lunch with an old female boss and catch up, I bring along another former co-worker to make sure it is a group setting to minimize chances of something beyond "old co-worker/friend" status forming. I'm not trying to say that's the same, because although a romance can't form with those people, I do have an active relationship which in itself makes it easier. Because I'm head over heels in love with my wife, it makes it a lot more difficult to fall for someone else. Anyways, this is somewhat tangental. I just wanted to point out that just because someone isn't celibate/gay doesn't mean they aren't subject to forbidden romance that can cause deep and serious pain.

[Slappo]

In other more on topic news then my post above, democrats in my state just put out bills to legalize same sex marriage and anti-discriminatory laws against LGBT. Kind of the opposite of Arizona. I don't know how far they'll go as our legislature has a significant republican majority though.

[franciscanheart]

Yes and no. I have a lot of female co-workers, and we have some family friends that include women of course, but I do not have any social friends that are female that do not fall in the "family friends" category. Any female friend that I have is also a friend of my wife.

I'm not quite sure what the underlined has to do with my post, because that'd be like me saying I have plenty of relationships with homosexual women and do not fall for them because they are not straight and that I have never fallen for a homosexual woman. That doesn't say anything about my ability to fall in love with a co-worker or other female friend that I wouldn't be able to have though.

Is there a possibility that I would fall in love with a co-worker and have to cut off that relationship or maybe even change jobs? Certainly there is - and that could be painful on multiple levels, painful for my wife that it even happened, painful for me for the loss of the friendship, and painful for me for the need to change jobs, and possibly painful for my family for the paycut I might have to take to do it. The fact is that I spend as much if not more time with my co-workers than I do with my wife. I also have to be extremely cautious about how social my relationships with former co-workers become. I have to make sure that if I want to go out to lunch with an old female boss and catch up, I bring along another former co-worker to make sure it is a group setting to minimize chances of something beyond "old co-worker/friend" status forming. I'm not trying to say that's the same, because although a romance can't form with those people, I do have an active relationship which in itself makes it easier. Because I'm head over heels in love with my wife, it makes it a lot more difficult to fall for someone else. Anyways, this is somewhat tangental. I just wanted to point out that just because someone isn't celibate/gay doesn't mean they aren't subject to forbidden romance that can cause deep and serious pain.

You've done well to point out that you are also in an "easier" position or a position of lessened pain because you do have a committed relationship which, I will add, is approved by the Church. That is never a possibility for me.

I'm not asking you to cry me a river, but it would be a bit ridiculous to presume that the challenges we face in the arena of romance are exactly the same. :)

[franciscanheart]

In other more on topic news then my post above, democrats in my state just put out bills to legalize same sex marriage and anti-discriminatory laws against LGBT. Kind of the opposite of Arizona. I don't know how far they'll go as our legislature has a significant republican majority though.

What are your thoughts on anti-discrimination laws?

[dUSt]

People tell me I look like a pedophile all the time. But I digress.

 

But yeah, I think comparing homosexuality to pedophilia or bestiality is stupid.

 

I think comparing homosexuality to adultery or masturbation is a better argument because these are non-predatory things among consensual adults that all people may struggle with at some point in their lives. Also, most people do not think masturbation is sinful, and some don't even think adultery is sinful. Just like most/some people do not think homosexuality is sinful.

 

I think the real strategy here should not be comparing homosexuality with anything, but rather, defining where the moral line should be--and if morality is absolute--or if it is relative to each individual's whims and desires. In other words--I think we should stop telling homosexuals how wrong they are, and start showing them the beauty and truth found in the Church.