What You Don't Know Can Hurt You

[NotreDame]

Tab'le, please don't take my post the wrong way.  I have had some discussions with you and I personally don't get where you are coming from, nonetheless I have never found you to have bad intentions and that's why I recommended that others don't overreact to your posts. 

[NotreDame]

Notre, I think in some ways the difference can be in terms of actual reciprocated love that can't be acted upon, rather than merely a crush on someone and it goes away because they don't share the same feelings.  Basically like if your friendships with girls where you might've had a crush on them actually had a crush on you also, then it's much harder to let go than if you're just friendzoned and have to deal with it because they're not interested in you.  when both people fall in love with each other but it's cut off, that's a recipe for pain as much as if you had had a relationship and broken up.  If that makes any sense.

 

So reading this I guess I should have asked a clarifying question...  I had the assumption that the "love" was something that wasn't reciprocated because it was a gay person having a crush on a straight person.  I guess I should ask FH if this is the scenario she was describing having experienced, because what you are describing is two gay people having feelings for each other and cutting it off for something like religious reasons...
 

[dUSt]

All I know is that FH's inability to drive or ride a bike all makes sense now.

[Slappo]

Notre, I think in some ways the difference can be in terms of actual reciprocated love that can't be acted upon, rather than merely a crush on someone and it goes away because they don't share the same feelings.  Basically like if your friendships with girls where you might've had a crush on them actually had a crush on you also, then it's much harder to let go than if you're just friendzoned and have to deal with it because they're not interested in you.  when both people fall in love with each other but it's cut off, that's a recipe for pain as much as if you had had a relationship and broken up.  If that makes any sense.

 

(not meaning to steal franny's thread here just sharing my own personal insight into the matter, I'm sure she'll have something to say in answer as well)

 

Yeah, but that's not limited to chaste homosexuals and celibates though. The same falls true for married men and women who are in a struggling marriage and find themselves falling for someone else, and even more true for those who get married and 5 years down the road end up in an abusive relationship where they have to divorce for the sake of their children and health but maybe don't qualify for an annulment. I don't think the idea of being in a position where you could fall for someone and have it be reciprocated is limited to some small select group of people.

 

I would imagine the thing that makes it harder for those living a chaste homosexual life would be that usually men and women's best friends (aside from a spouse) are the same gender. As a married man I don't go out for a night on the town with the girls, so my social opportunities to fall for someone I can't have are more limited since I'm not attracted to the guys I hang out with. This entire paragraph is speculation though.

[mortify ii]

I've finally had a chance to go over this massive thread and realize I've judged it a bit prematurely. I was initially put off by the antagonism I sensed in the OP and several subsequent posts, but now reading it all in totality I have a more balanced view. I think it's a very delicate subject, and the few friends I've had who dealt with a similar situation didn't fair to well and eventually left the faith. It's a tough dilemma because love is a good thing, a beautiful thing, and yet we are telling a person that they can not love. That's tough. Furthermore, their feelings are considered "disordered" by the religion they believe in. I mean, how do you kindly express to someone that their feelings for someone is wrong and should they act on that love they will hurt their relationship with God? I really don't know if there is a way not to be offensive, and Catholics need to work on explaining the faith that is authentic and clear and still charitable. 

[dUSt]

What do you guys think of this Protestant rapper's lyrics. This was a response song to Macklemore's "Same Love":

It's funny how the media portrays things
They really pushing hard for this gay thing
And it's so wicked how they manipulate things
Can't even disagree without them making it a hate thing
I say you wrong, and you holla "hate" instantly
But you say we the ones who don't tolerate differences
There's a whole lot of things I could say really
But, see your hypocrisy is something I could paint vividly
Saying, it's the way you was born, and I'm sure that
You lust just like I do just in a different form
But I'm married so if I give into mine, I'm a cheater
If you give into yours, you just fight to make it legal
You rather fight God, then fight sin
The Bible is alright, until it calls what you like sin
And I feel so disrespected that you were so desperate
You would compare your sexual habits to my skin (What?!?)
Calling it the new black
Tell me where they do that
They hung us like tree ornaments, where were you at?
They burned us for entertainment, you go through that?
Mom's raped in front of they kids, while they shoot dad
Ever been murdered just for trying to learn how to read bro? (Nope.)
A show of hands?
I didn't think so
So, quit comparing the two. It ain't the same fight
You can play straight. We can never play white
Using black people as pawns for yo' agenda
And these sell out rappers will do whatever you tell em'
Skirts on stages, campaigning for that black vote
Afraid to be blackballed, so they play that role
You were never oppressed, the devil was a liar
The only thing oppressed was yo sexual desire
Keeping yo' desires oppressed is so lame to you
But when you get married, that's what you expect yo' mate to do
It angers you, if I compare you to a pedophile
Cuz' he sick, right?
And you're better how?
(Man, I ain't choose this.)
You think he chose that?
(But, I was born this.)
Well, prove he wasn't born that
But, you were never a girl
He was once nine
So at one time in his life, it was just fine
What makes your loss right?
I'm not buying it
So, put him in that same trash can you threw that bible in
See how that cycle is?
Nobody wants to repent of they evil
So, we all try justifying it
And you say it's about rights, but you lying tho
Domestic partnerships gave you rights a long time ago
God created marriage, when he did, he defined it tho'
So why is it you want we He created, but deny Him tho?
It's not wicked enough, switching the definition?
You want it done by a Christian in a church he worships in?
And that rainbow you using as a gay pride symbol (you stole that)
It represents a covenant with God if you didn't know
Check Genesis 9:13 for the info
Homie, the war is spiritual, you don't know what you in fo'
I ain't sayin' yo' sin is worse, but it is sin tho
The Lord took the punishment for it all on Him tho (Praise God)
We just gotta repent tho
The problem is if you don't call it sin, then
You walk as if there's nothing to repent for
Let's recap:
We all wicked and desire sin
But imagine a world where no one kept there desires in
If something was called right cuz' simply we desired it
When yo' right goes against my right, who's right would win
As for being born that way
I should never see ya'll
Ever see use a word like "retard"
To describe someone who was born a little differently than we are
I guess down syndrome really isn't a thing ya'll
What do we call yo' syndrome?
Oh, that term is offensive now when it hits home?
So, what gives you the right to call the way he was born a defect?
I call yours a defect, you feel it's disrespect
You don't believe in God?
Hey, the universe says if we all gay
We either die off or have to do it God's way
And God loves you no matter what you struggle with
At least struggle tho, don't just give up and quit
Forget how you were born
We were all born in sin
But Christ died for your sin
You can be born again (Praise God for forgiveness)
We were all born in sin
But Christ died so we can be born again
Hallelujah!

[mortify ii]

What do you guys think of this Protestant rapper's lyrics. This was a response song to Macklemore's "Same Love":
 

 

Sounds pretty accurate to me.

 

Interestingly enough I've actually had a chance to watch the news tonight, something I never do (not because I don't want to, it's just the time is always lacking.) So as I ate my dinner with CNN on the whole Arizona Freedom of Religion mandate was being talked about. Of course the whole thing was painted as a bill supporting hate, but they had a gentleman on explaining the context behind the bill. As it happened, a baker and photographer were both sued by gay couples because they were told they did not feel comfortable participating in their (pseudo) marital ceremony. All this bill does is protect such private business owners from involving themselves in something contrary to their conscience. I never understood why someone would fight to force someone offer a service, I mean do you really want a baker to make you a wedding cake against their will? Furthermore, all this is disturbingly close to forcing Churches to "marry" gays. We're really getting to the point where even the Church is not sacrosanct, and I've even heard there are liberal lawyers fighting to amend the bill of rights so that they protect the freedom of "worship" and not religion. A poignant distinction. 

 

Very disturbing how everything is turning out. Hopefully our gay Catholic bothers and sisters will stand up to fight the good fight. 

[Anastasia13]

Maybe this sounds crazy, but I've been reading part of another forum on sexuality recently. I like a lot of what this guy says. I do think that that being homo or bi sexual are also often accompanied by homo-romantic relationships, and that causes the extra burden to bare. This is a different one than skin color that people can't hide, but it is another thing to never be able to have someone you fall in love with an express that love physically. This song could probably be analyzed further, but aside from that, the rapper makes a lot of great points, and I respect him for voicing them, and I'm off for a bit.

 

What do you guys think of this Protestant rapper's lyrics. This was a response song to Macklemore's "Same Love":

It's funny how the media portrays things
They really pushing hard for this gay thing
And it's so wicked how they manipulate things
Can't even disagree without them making it a hate thing
I say you wrong, and you holla "hate" instantly
But you say we the ones who don't tolerate differences
There's a whole lot of things I could say really
But, see your hypocrisy is something I could paint vividly
Saying, it's the way you was born, and I'm sure that
You lust just like I do just in a different form
But I'm married so if I give into mine, I'm a cheater
If you give into yours, you just fight to make it legal
You rather fight God, then fight sin
The Bible is alright, until it calls what you like sin
And I feel so disrespected that you were so desperate
You would compare your sexual habits to my skin (What?!?)
Calling it the new black
Tell me where they do that
They hung us like tree ornaments, where were you at?
They burned us for entertainment, you go through that?
Mom's raped in front of they kids, while they shoot dad
Ever been murdered just for trying to learn how to read bro? (Nope.)
A show of hands?
I didn't think so
So, quit comparing the two. It ain't the same fight
You can play straight. We can never play white
Using black people as pawns for yo' agenda
And these sell out rappers will do whatever you tell em'
Skirts on stages, campaigning for that black vote
Afraid to be blackballed, so they play that role
You were never oppressed, the devil was a liar
The only thing oppressed was yo sexual desire
Keeping yo' desires oppressed is so lame to you
But when you get married, that's what you expect yo' mate to do
It angers you, if I compare you to a pedophile
Cuz' he sick, right?
And you're better how?
(Man, I ain't choose this.)
You think he chose that?
(But, I was born this.)
Well, prove he wasn't born that
But, you were never a girl
He was once nine
So at one time in his life, it was just fine
What makes your loss right?
I'm not buying it
So, put him in that same trash can you threw that bible in
See how that cycle is?
Nobody wants to repent of they evil
So, we all try justifying it
And you say it's about rights, but you lying tho
Domestic partnerships gave you rights a long time ago
God created marriage, when he did, he defined it tho'
So why is it you want we He created, but deny Him tho?
It's not wicked enough, switching the definition?
You want it done by a Christian in a church he worships in?
And that rainbow you using as a gay pride symbol (you stole that)
It represents a covenant with God if you didn't know
Check Genesis 9:13 for the info
Homie, the war is spiritual, you don't know what you in fo'
I ain't sayin' yo' sin is worse, but it is sin tho
The Lord took the punishment for it all on Him tho (Praise God)
We just gotta repent tho
The problem is if you don't call it sin, then
You walk as if there's nothing to repent for
Let's recap:
We all wicked and desire sin
But imagine a world where no one kept there desires in
If something was called right cuz' simply we desired it
When yo' right goes against my right, who's right would win
As for being born that way
I should never see ya'll
Ever see use a word like "retard"
To describe someone who was born a little differently than we are
I guess down syndrome really isn't a thing ya'll
What do we call yo' syndrome?
Oh, that term is offensive now when it hits home?
So, what gives you the right to call the way he was born a defect?
I call yours a defect, you feel it's disrespect
You don't believe in God?
Hey, the universe says if we all gay
We either die off or have to do it God's way
And God loves you no matter what you struggle with
At least struggle tho, don't just give up and quit
Forget how you were born
We were all born in sin
But Christ died for your sin
You can be born again (Praise God for forgiveness)
We were all born in sin
But Christ died so we can be born again
Hallelujah!

 

 

[Anastasia13]

Sounds pretty accurate to me.

 

Interestingly enough I've actually had a chance to watch the news tonight, something I never do (not because I don't want to, it's just the time is always lacking.) So as I ate my dinner with CNN on the whole Arizona Freedom of Religion mandate was being talked about. Of course the whole thing was painted as a bill supporting hate, but they had a gentleman on explaining the context behind the bill. As it happened, a baker and photographer were both sued by gay couples because they were told they did not feel comfortable participating in their (pseudo) marital ceremony. All this bill does is protect such private business owners from involving themselves in something contrary to their conscience. I never understood why someone would fight to force someone offer a service, I mean do you really want a baker to make you a wedding cake against their will? Furthermore, all this is disturbingly close to forcing Churches to "marry" gays. We're really getting to the point where even the Church is not sacrosanct, and I've even heard there are liberal lawyers fighting to amend the bill of rights so that they protect the freedom of "worship" and not religion. A poignant distinction. 

 

Very disturbing how everything is turning out. Hopefully our gay Catholic bothers and sisters will stand up to fight the good fight. 

 

Perhaps using the word psuedo-marriages to describe them homosexual ceremonies was not the best choice of words, but really, are Protestants even married? Are people from Buddhist, Muslim, or court ceremonies married? In Protestant churches, weddings are vows before God that many people don't even believe in. Gov. should never go messing with sacraments.

[franciscanheart]

Notre, I think in some ways the difference can be in terms of actual reciprocated love that can't be acted upon, rather than merely a crush on someone and it goes away because they don't share the same feelings.  Basically like if your friendships with girls where you might've had a crush on them actually had a crush on you also, then it's much harder to let go than if you're just friendzoned and have to deal with it because they're not interested in you.  when both people fall in love with each other but it's cut off, that's a recipe for pain as much as if you had had a relationship and broken up.  If that makes any sense.

 

(not meaning to steal franny's thread here just sharing my own personal insight into the matter, I'm sure she'll have something to say in answer as well)

 

I agree with this. I think that's great way of explaining it, and I ditto this response, Notre.

[franciscanheart]

So reading this I guess I should have asked a clarifying question...  I had the assumption that the "love" was something that wasn't reciprocated because it was a gay person having a crush on a straight person.  I guess I should ask FH if this is the scenario she was describing having experienced, because what you are describing is two gay people having feelings for each other and cutting it off for something like religious reasons...
 

 

No, no, no. I was not in love with a straight person. The person I fell in love with is also gay, another homosexual woman. It would be nearly impossible, I think, to fall in love with a straight person if the person "falling" is even semi-healthy.

 

I have a lot of gay friends -- male and female -- and none of them are on exactly the same page as I am. But it is important to me to know other gay people and to have relationships with them. One in particular, another Catholic, I fell for. And there's another woman with whom I am close that I certainly could fall for, given the right circumstances. Avoiding that relationship so that I don't hurt myself -- or her -- is tough.

 

Al was on track with his description. :)

[franciscanheart]

I've finally had a chance to go over this massive thread and realize I've judged it a bit prematurely. I was initially put off by the antagonism I sensed in the OP and several subsequent posts, but now reading it all in totality I have a more balanced view. I think it's a very delicate subject, and the few friends I've had who dealt with a similar situation didn't fair to well and eventually left the faith. It's a tough dilemma because love is a good thing, a beautiful thing, and yet we are telling a person that they can not love. That's tough. Furthermore, their feelings are considered "disordered" by the religion they believe in. I mean, how do you kindly express to someone that their feelings for someone is wrong and should they act on that love they will hurt their relationship with God? I really don't know if there is a way not to be offensive, and Catholics need to work on explaining the faith that is authentic and clear and still charitable. 

 

You're not the first person to tell me I came off as antagonistic in my original post. Can you tell me what language made you feel that way? I am new to the coming out process. I was scared for a lot of years about it, and I am afraid I maybe am a little too chest-puffed-out about how I am approaching it and not realizing it. I would like to know what is giving the aggressive perception so that I may think about and reevaluate my word choice.

[mortify ii]

Perhaps using the word psuedo-marriages to describe them homosexual ceremonies was not the best choice of words, but really, are Protestants even married? Are people from Buddhist, Muslim, or court ceremonies married? In Protestant churches, weddings are vows before God that many people don't even believe in. Gov. should never go messing with sacraments.

There really is no polite way to say it, it's going to be deemed offensive either way. As to your question the answer is yes, non-Catholic marriages are valid and even sacramental.

[NotreDame]

No, no, no. I was not in love with a straight person.

 

[...]

 

Al was on track with his description. :)

 

Got it.  Thanks.
 

[franciscanheart]

What do you guys think of this Protestant rapper's lyrics. This was a response song to Macklemore's "Same Love".

 

I'll be honest, dUSt: I don't walk away feeling great after this. Does he make some good points? Sure. But he also makes some terrible points. Or, maybe, he's got good intention and terrible delivery. Here are some things that really struck me the wrong way (as a faithful, gay Catholic).

 

 

So, quit comparing the two. It ain't the same fight
You can play straight. We can never play white
 

You're right. Black people can't play white. They can talk the talk and walk the walk but their skin will always be black. But here's the thing: he's asking gay people to play straight because they have the ability. How does that register as okay? What about that is healthy? It's a terrible thing to ask someone to be something they are not. It's a horrible disgrace to suggest someone should hide something they are. Yeah, I can play straight; I played straight for 27 years. You know what? It nearly killed me several times. It's not worth your comfort for me to "play" straight. Playing straight is a lie. Playing straight hurts. Playing straight takes lives. Maybe no one is lynching us on the same level (numbers wise) as they did in the deep south back in the day, but that is not to say people are not murdered for being gay. They are. They are bullied, beaten, murdered. They are run out of their homes and onto the street before they have reached legal voting age. They are mentally, emotionally, verbally, spiritually abused. And it's okay, why? Oh right: because it's in the name of Jesus. No, sorry: not okay. It's not okay for you to ask me to play straight. It's not okay for you to say that just because I'm not black that I don't have problems or face discrimination and prejudice. We get it: black people are disadvantaged. But newsflash: so are a lot of other communities.

 

[Stopping myself there because I can feel the anger bubbling up. I'm sure I've already said something I'll regret and there's no need to add to that.]

 

 

It angers you, if I compare you to a pedophile

Cuz' he sick, right?
And you're better how?

 

I'm sorry, what? Seriously? Pedophiles? This is exactly the kind of ignorant, hateful shit I can't stand. I'll never apologize for my disgust at someone suggesting I'm like a pedophile. There is a difference between falling in love with another adult person who is mature and evolved and capable of returning love. There is a difference between establishing an adult relationship and connection with another adult and molesting children. Yeah, there's a difference. And it's a big one. I loathe the idea that it's okay to compare the two. And yes, I lack respect for anyone who believes otherwise. Those are the people I will never be able to talk to. I cannot handle it. They disgust me.

 

 

 

 

Your turn. What are your thoughts?