What You Don't Know Can Hurt You

[NotreDame]

I do see where one small piece of what I said could have been misconstrued. I'm sorry I said it in a way which suggested you have no love for homosexual persons.

I've responded to Arfink's post. I was deeply hurt by some of the comments made. It was indeed hostile -- unnecessarily so -- and not my best moment. I spoke in anger and hurt. It was unbecoming at best.

 

Was I aggressive in the initial post? It wasn't intended aggressively. Please point out what I said that gave you this impression, and if you're so inclined, please offer some alternate word choices that would have been perceived (at least by you) as less hostile / aggressive.

 

I certainly didn't mean to imply that anyone lacked love. Just a little poke at the possibility that perhaps we all harbor some prejudice we cannot or will not admit readily or easily.

 

As Aloysius later pointed out (several times -- thanks Al!), I did say the following in the opening post:

 

"I'd like to start talking about the big stuff, the stuff that really matters in our culture today. The stuff that's making headlines and dividing sanctuaries."

I read your original post - and the previous - a few times and still had no idea what you were talking about, so the first page of the thread surprised me, but you've since apologized and been straightforward so that's cool. I don't really have any other questions at the moment.
 

[franciscanheart]

I'm going to hazard a guess here. Given the other things I've seen Franny post here over the years I think she basically wanted to be honest with who she is and her worldview as a gay Catholic woman. I recall a thread she posted awhile back about being authentic. From what I've seen from the few gay people that I know not everyone comes to grips with it at the same time. There is no magical age where it clicks. Sure, she mentioned it before, and apparently it didn't impact anyone else here very much. But it's clearly impacting HER to admit to herself and others that she has these attractions and they're not going away, they're not minor, and if she wishes to remain a faithful Catholic she has a lot of sacrifices to make. That's HARD. I don't really feel like she should be expected to shoulder that in silence. I don't know what she was hoping for when she started this thread, but I do think it was a way of reaching out.

 

I'm not looking to argue, there are way too many combative posts in this thread already. I'm just trying to give some sort of answer to your question. I don't think it's a simple answer because it's so deeply entwined in emotions.

 

First, thanks for this post. Second, I was on narcotic pain killers. YEESH. Third, I wasn't entirely clear on how to convey what I was getting at. I wanted to hit some big points up front, to avoid some important things getting buried in inevitable arguing, and all I did was make a big ol' mess. (No one was really surprised, though, so...)

 

 

I strongly recommend the book The Courage to Be Chaste by Fr. Benedict Groeschel for anyone interested in a Catholic perspective on the homosexual person's place in the Church.

 

Thanks for this recommendation. I'll be re-reading. :)

 

 

well, not to state the obvious.

but you don't know what its like to stay faithful to church teaching on this issue, despite social, political, emotional and financial pressure, do you? 

im sure you understand the catholic struggle though.

>c         r        e        d         i        b         i         l        i         t        y         g        a         p<<

 

She might not, but I do. :like:

 

 

I'm intrigued by those who come out in communities that forbid gay relations. It takes a lot of courage to remain part of a group that you feel you may be judged by.

 

:smokey:

 

 

As well Frannie, I am curious whether you yourself have been exposed to the whole Side A v. Side B Gay Christian Debate. If so I am curious what your thoughts are on it.

 

P.S. your posts always bring a smile to my heart.

 

Two things:

1. I have not yet read your long response. My eyes are getting VERY heavy and I want to give your post a thorough read (or five) before I reply. Thank you for taking the time to do that!

 

2. Can you please explain what you mean here? I'm confused. Side A v Side B?

 

 

so a few things to mention. I took a shot of whiskey for every time I read the word "dismissive," so the past few pages have been a bit blurry.

 

Hostility is associated with heart problems so just as a friendly reminder, you can avoid a myocardial infarction by reducing your raeg. I want all of you bastards to live long and healthy lives.

 

Lastly, I have a Q for FH if she feels so inclined to answer. Why do you feel the need to identify as gay? I know you might have touched on this before, but for myself I feel the pressure to tick a box on the sexual orientation question is wholly imposed via external means by an external culture that is hostile to the core of what I believe as a Catholic. Does that make sense? I don't think my refusal to identify is because I'm on the default setting of a heteronormative culture.

 

If you're willing to discuss how identifying as gay helps you deal with sh** I'd be interested in hearing you out. If it's not something you want to or know how to answer, that's fine :)

 

Your first line cracked me up. You're my kind of drinking buddy!

 

To your question: I think I have answered some of that in previous responses to other posters but I will give you why it was important at first for me to identify as gay.

 

It became important pretty quickly after I realized I was gay to identify that way -- to me and to others. Firstly, it was a way of acknowledging that I was having a lot of big FEELINGS that I didn't know how to deal with. It defined some internal chaos for me -- gave me a name to use when identifying a big group of things going on. It also let the people I was talking to know exactly what was happening. In a strange sense (seemingly backwards), it allowed me to feel normal. I was not THE norm, but I wasn't some strange creature who had feelings no one else had ever had. It gave me other people to identify with, a community who understood, even if I sometimes disagree with their thoughts and feelings about how to live our lives.

 

I needed to say I was gay so that I could be okay with NOT saying I was gay. I needed to come to terms with what it meant to have the feelings I had and to experience the pain I did (growing up in a heterosexual world with homosexual inclination). They needed a reason. Something solid. Something I could hold on to, inspect, say out loud for myself and for other people.

 

I don't know if any of this makes sense.

 

For a long time I said it didn't matter, I didn't need to define me -- nor did anyone else. But eventually I did need to do that. I needed to define what was going on -- first for myself, and then for the people around me.

 

It's grown since then into something bigger. But it started selfishly. For my own mental health.

 

If you're ever so inclined, do some research on why coming out is considered a healthy action for positive mental health development. It's really intriguing.

 

I feel freer than ever before, and I'm not even completely out. It may not change anything for anyone but me, but I'm worth it. ;)

[Lilllabettt]

you must be magic you wave the magic simmer-down-now wand.  thank you.

[franciscanheart]

I read your original post - and the previous - a few times and still had no idea what you were talking about, so the first page of the thread surprised me, but you've since apologized and been straightforward so that's cool. I don't really have any other questions at the moment.
 

 

Words are not my forte. I probably should have taken more time with the initial post, but it is now what it is. I did, on some level, leave it intentionally vague so that I might use the thread to discuss a number of things in one place.

 

I am sorry for the shitstorm that happened because of my emotional response to arfink. I hope we might have an enlightening discussion going forward -- about whatever this morphs into.

[Lilllabettt]

you must be magic you wave the magic simmer-down-now wand.  thank you.

 

p.s. sorry for plowing through in your thread

[brandelynmarie]

FH, thank you for explaining a little more about what was/is going on. :) Like arfink & others, I wanted clarification, but I stepped back to watch & listen & learn....

[franciscanheart]

So when you say that "it will no longer be necessary to come out", etc., what kind of society/culture are you envisioning? 

 

Awesome question. ... I have no idea. Hahaha! I'll think about this and respond in the next day or two. If I forget, please don't hesitate to give me a nudge. That's the first time anyone has asked that. Or at least, that I can remember. (That says nothing, really: my memory is awful.)

 

I don't mean to say that homosexuality will just be accepted and no one will bat an eye or anything. I know that much. If that answers your question, stop me from thinking too hard! :like:

[franciscanheart]

Fran, how would you suggest we deal with people in the LGBT community who use their sexual orientation as a club? I have personally been sexually harassed by gay men who wanted to hit on me with the express intent of making me uncomfortable, while others have attempted to convince me that I can't possibly be straight because I am not like other men. What do?

 

My first suggestion is to understand this as best you can: anyone who makes any part of themselves or their lives into a sort of club is just looking for community. Why do Catholics hang out together? Because they understand each other. Because they feel belonging. Because they feel understood. Do all Catholics get along? No. Are we all exactly the same? Heck no. Neither are the gays.

 

Those who would push that on you are wrong for that. Is it their way of dealing with perceived disgust or judgment or lack of understanding? Maybe. It's equally unfair of them to assume your opinion of them as it is for us to assume why they act the way they do. Ultimately, motivation and intent are, in my opinion, irrelevant in this kind of situation. If women were hitting on you to an extent that made you uncomfortable, it would be equally awful. I think it's always okay to say, "Your advances are unappreciated. Please stop." How people perceive that is their own business.

 

As far as people trying to convince you that you must be gay because you are "unlike other men"? Bullhonkey. I know a lot of effeminate men. I know a lot of masculine women. No one gets to decide for you and anyone who tries is ignorant. Remember that you alone know who you are and how you operate. No one can tell you. And those that try are welcoming a charitable reminder to mind their own business.

 

You also get to tell them how it makes you feel. I encourage you to do that. It's liberating.

 

---

If I've only half answered your question, I apologize. It's getting late and I am unusually tired. More later (maybe).

[franciscanheart]

p.s. sorry for plowing through in your thread

 

No apology necessary.

 

 

FH, thank you for explaining a little more about what was/is going on. :) Like arfink & others, I wanted clarification, but I stepped back to watch & listen & learn....

 

Sure. If I've been unclear or you still have questions, please let me know. I have said it a few times but I am especially tired and words are not my forte. Add pain killers to the mix and well... yeah. :yawn:

[Nihil Obstat]

amesome question. ... I have no idea. Hahaha! I'll think about this and respond in the next day or two. If I forget, please don't hesitate to give me a nudge. That's the first time anyone has asked that. Or at least, that I can remember. (That says nothing, really: my memory is awful.)

 

I don't mean to say that homosexuality will just be accepted and no one will bat an eye or anything. I know that much. If that answers your question, stop me from thinking too hard! :like:

I started writing out a post that included some initial speculation on my part, but it led to a dead end. So I will wait for a little while, and perhaps post again. Or perhaps come to some more firm ideas of my own.

[franciscanheart]

I don't have much time so I'll be brief:

 

My mother left my dad because she's an active homosexual, and my cousin who I used to be close with is also an active homosexual ("used to be close with" is unrelated). Also a close practicing Catholic college friend has SSA. People close to me that are attracted to the same gender isn't really anything new is all I'm trying to point out by saying that. I don't interact with FH any differently than any other PMer, but if it were real life, I would probably act differently knowing her sexual orientation (whether intentional or not). I'm not really proud of that (that I would act differently), but I do know that I would. That's a sad fact though. I act differently around my cousin, my mom, and for the short time that we were still in college together, my college friend. To some extent it is reasonable, but to a major extent it's extremely sad.

 

I really doubt there's many of us who would have zero difference in our relationship with someone we were close with after finding out something we didn't know about their sexual/emotional attractions (I add emotional b/c lets be honest, "liking" someone isn't just about their pantaloons).

 

So I'll try to include in my prayers the next week that we really treat others as children of God first and foremost, because there is no one on this forum that hasn't at one point in their life made a rash judgment about someone else based on skin color, religion, hair style, clothing choice, some other superficial thing, gender, career choice, etc.

 

 

 

Oh, and fran, thanks for making the thread. It's been a long while since I've really thought about how I treat my mom differently and need to continue to work on loving her and letting go of my bitterness.

 

Thanks for this, Slappo.  :heart: Godspeed, brother.

[franciscanheart]

I started writing out a post that included some initial speculation on my part, but it led to a dead end. So I will wait for a little while, and perhaps post again. Or perhaps come to some more firm ideas of my own.

 

Right on. Thanks for sparing my brain all that thinking. :like:

[PadrePioOfPietrelcino]

Two things:

1. I have not yet read your long response. My eyes are getting VERY heavy and I want to give your post a thorough read (or five) before I reply. Thank you for taking the time to do that!

 

2. Can you please explain what you mean here? I'm confused. Side A v Side B?

 

 

No problem on typing it all up, I agree this is important it's worth the time.

 

Side A and Side B are terms used in the homosexual Christian community to describe their theological understanding of homosexuality in short hand.

 

Side A are those Gay Christians who assert that homosexual marriage is legitimate because the scriptural evidence is about those who abuse sexuality in Pagan worship not the homosexuality itself. (Generalized with a broad brush for brevity)

 

Side B are those who believe that homosexuality (Gay, SSA) itself is not sinful but any action on it is. These people strive to live lives of celibacy. (Also in a broad brush for brevity)

 

Side A people (or at least those I have the honor of having talked with) think that Side B is hurtful, harmful, and leads to self loathing and repression. Leading to increased climates of not being welcome and suicide rates. They fail to see how freely chosen and understood celibacy is a fully integrated sexual person who is giving the gift of their love to the Church and those around them.

 

I clearly can see, you are on the "Side B" side. I was more curious if you had experienced this debate at all yet and how you have dealt with the issues involved especially if it was you actually defending celibacy. If I try to talk about celibacy I'm told that I'm hetero so my celibacy is chosen and different, that there is no way for me to understand the repression and harm of homosexual celibacy forced on them by religion...ugh...it's just so hard to communicate sometimes.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

I don't get this thread are you a homosexual or not? If it be proud of women you be Pride is as sin. Any sin is made worse by boasting in it. Sex before marriage is also sin in any way shape or form. All in need of confession,penance and a true desire to make amends.

 

St Paul " If one is to boast they should boast in the LORD!"

Edited February 25, 2014 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[NotreDame]

I actually have a question now... from a spiritual perspective, do you view SSA as a cross to bear?  Or as a certain type of vocation you have been called to live out (eg. single life)?  or perhaps something else?  or have you not thought about or arrived at a conclusion in this regard?