What You Don't Know Can Hurt You

[the171]

r u kidding me srsly

[Seven77]

Words and more words and stuff. FH, as i posted earlier, you are the same precious child of God you were before and i'll continue to treat you as such. And, I think its very wrong not to serve gay people--excepting wedding related goods and services obviously.

 

That's about it for now.

[Tony]

I wanted to ask you something in private but it wouldn't send so here it is.

 

 

Has figuring out you are gay  impacted your discernment with the Franciscans in any way?  I know it had been a while ,  but you really had your heart set on the Franciscans on one point, if I recall right.

 

[franciscanheart]

I am grateful to say Arfink and I have had a quite nice, brief, private conversation and have worked things out. Because I was a turd to him publicly, here is a public apology (sent privately to him first).

 

"I do not deserve your forgiveness, though I am content to beg for it. My lash at you yesterday was undeserved and unbecoming. I am known to have a very short fuse. At 27, I've no one to blame but me. I am working on it, despite appearances to the contrary, and I am sorry that you were on the other end of my pride and temper.

What you said hurt me deeply. Perhaps it was not your intention to do so -- your intention is not mine to determine -- but it did. It did hurt. Very much. And I had a strong emotional response to that pain which was masked as anger. I was hurt and responded from that place without much thought or prayer. And as it usually goes, I wanted instantly to take it back, to have a do-over.

I will tell you, if you want to know, what struck me most. It may make no difference to you, and I do not mean to waste your time with explanations if you'd rather just move on. I am sending this privately now, but fully intend to post it publicly with your blessing."

 

I do have posts to which I'd like to respond but don't want them in this post. More soon.

[Vincent Vega]

Christ, there are some frustrating responses to this thread. No wonder I don't spend much time around here anymore.

[franciscanheart]

Yeah, why does this topic keep coming up? You mentioned something about your orientation a long time ago now, and as I recall, nobody really had much to say either way. It was very blah. I don't get the feeling that anybody here hated you over it.
 
What issues do you feel you need to talk about? I'm not trying to be dismissive, I just honestly don't know.

 
This post was hurtful. I responded poorly initially.
 
 
I don't feel I need to talk about any issues, really, for my own sake. I do feel like all issues which affect gay people -- in the Church and outside of the Church, the pews and outside sanctuary walls -- should be discussed. At length. Beatitude said very eloquently what I intend to imply: Why do I feel like I need to keep saying something? Because the community at large has yet to understand why it's important to listen.
 
Why? For the sake of children growing up right now who will one day realize they are gay. So that they experience a reality far different from the one I experienced growing up and continue to experience on a daily basis. It may seem trivial to some, but it will not seem trivial to those children.
 
It's been the burden of people like me to keep quiet, not make a big deal about things. To choose our words carefully so as not to persecute people who are just living by religious beliefs. As if we are not doing the same. As if we are not living our lives by the same principles.
 
I will copy the text of a conversation I had with a friend recently (on a different social platform). It was private, so I will keep his/her name private. (I had typed one really great message that I was proud of that was lost, but hopefully this text will help to answer some of what you asked. I know you asked with genuine curiosity, despite how poorly I received it. I am grateful your friend helped you to see where maybe there was a better way to say it, or a better way to respond.)
 
---------------

(One day following some discussion which touched on homosexuality in some way...)
franciscanheart:
On my way to work. Will respond later. Should have waited to respond this morning -- just said my final goodbye to an animal friend and am stressed / emotional. More later. xo.

friend:
Sorry to touch a nerve, we can drop it if you want.

franciscanheart:
No, no. I just need to slow down. As always. More later. I have a four-year-old beating me with a sword while picking his nose. I need to kick his butt and wipe his face. ;)

friend:
good call


(A couple weeks later...)
franciscanheart:
Whatever discussion we were having slipped my mind and now I'm not sure where to start.

For whatever reason, I feel compelled to tell you I'm coming out soon. My parents know, though we've not had "the talk" yet, and so do many of my close friends.

It's obviously not a decision I've made lightly. I know it may seem unnecessary to some, but I am tired of lying by omission. I'm also done with hiding in order to make myself more comfortable; I'm not comfortable (basically ever) and my staying closeted helps no one.

I've struggled for a long time with how coming out would affect how people engage with me in theological, philosophical, ethical discussion. I don't care anymore. Those who would discount me based on their preconceived notions would never hear what I was saying anyway.

Before I get off on a tangent (too late?) let me say this:
I'm telling you because we've gone back and forth on it a lot. The reason the issue of the treatment of homosexual persons is so close to me is because I am a homosexual. I AM gay.

I'm not ashamed of who I am, though I was for a long time. I'm not afraid to stand up for what I know is right, to question those who would belittle or discount me, or to be Catholic in spite of how I am treated by other Catholics.

I am faithful and I am chaste (not that it's anyone's business, really). I deserve love and respect. And when I talk about the issues facing the LGBTQ community, I speak from a place of intimate understanding.

I don't know you anymore -- it's been too many years marked by too many dramas -- but I hope to keep you as part of my online life. I have always loved and respected you, and I would hope whatever relationship we have these days can survive me sharing this with you.

I love you.


friend:
I was beginning to intuit that that was a possibility. I don't really know what it was, just some slight signals I was picking up. This doesn't really change things between us for me. A person with a same-sex attraction who desires to live a life of chastity in fidelity to the Church can be a source of great inspiration for people. I am glad that that's the sort of life you want to live. I'll have to admit, I always cringe when someone says, "I AM gay", not b/c a person with a SSA is necessarily cringe-worthy but b/c I don't think a person's identity should be defined by their sexual orientation. In my mind, the only way to fill in the blank in the "I am" statement is with the words "a child of God." It seems to me that someone with a SSA would want a world where we got beyond defining people by who they are attracted to, but the language these same people use to describe themselves just exacerbates the problem.

franciscanheart:
I suppose I just see it as one of a hundred ways of telling you about me. I am first and foremost a child of God, absolutely. I am also short, round, and gay. The same way you are tall, slender, and straight. Make sense?

friend:
Yea, I see what you mean.

franciscanheart:
I had a long response I lost when my phone died. Composing again. (Hate that. It was good!!)

I appreciate what you mean when you talk about getting to a day where it doesn't matter. But unfortunately, until we get to that day, it is -- at least in my opinion -- extremely necessary for us to be "out", not to hide. It's important for each of us to stand up and say, "Hey, I'm gay, too." So that people can see often and well that we are just as capable of charity, faithfulness, generosity, etc. So that people may see we are not so different, we are just inclined to romantically love our own sex.

There are people in my life -- more than I can count on all my fingers and toes -- who would not claim to have a gay friend because they do not know I am gay. I have the opportunity to inform through a sharing intimate parts of my emotional and mental life. Why would I not?

I have been given the opportunity to help change the way we treat people just like me. I get to help us arrive at the point that it does not matter. I am grateful for that, despite its difficulties.

Because you and I are alike, this aside. I am just as capable and deserving as you are, regardless of how my girl parts work in relation to the opposite sex.

When people truly understand this and operate from that understanding, it will no longer be necessary to come out. It will no longer be necessary to identify for other people our sexual orientations. But for now, it is. For now, we have to be brave, believe in ourselves as children of a loving God, and trust the Holy Spirit to provide us the necessary graces to stand steady in love in spite of the hurt of ignorance often hurled in our direction.

---------

I am obviously still working on that last bit. And I pray daily for the Holy Spirit to pour out graces upon me so that I may stand in love alone and let all the hurt fall away so that I may be a true example of what it means to be a follower of Christ who happens to be gay and not a stereotypical "angry lesbian"... for the sake of the gay Catholics being born today.

[Nihil Obstat]

 
When people truly understand this and operate from that understanding, it will no longer be necessary to come out. It will no longer be necessary to identify for other people our sexual orientations. But for now, it is. For now, we have to be brave, believe in ourselves as children of a loving God, and trust the Holy Spirit to provide us the necessary graces to stand steady in love in spite of the hurt of ignorance often hurled in our direction.

---------
 

So when you say that "it will no longer be necessary to come out", etc., what kind of society/culture are you envisioning? 

[franciscanheart]

I've got one. although perhaps given the thread so far you may not be in a place where you can answer this question.
 
How would you advise religious people (catholics in particular, if you want) deal with prejudice from the gay community/allies? 
How do we approach dialog with people when their preconceived notion is that our perspective is grounded in disrespect?
 
How should religious individuals reach past intolerance and invite those in the majority to ask the minority "why." E.g.: why are you opposed to gay marriage? (as opposed to assuming it is based on hatred/fear of gay people.)

I don't have an easy or great answer to this. I think we should all start by being a little less defensive wherever possible. Little bits at a time. It's going to an arduous process, but it'll be worth it.

 

I am often nervous to speak to other Catholics (even those I know intimately) about my sexuality because more often than not, I am met with hostility. Even by those who know I am faithful, chaste, and torn to pieces over this fact of my life. I am talked about like I have a rash and like I do not know what I am called to do. I am talked down to, talked around, and talked past. I am often not seen as a human initially. It changes the way people interact with me and it hurts.

 

I would suggest starting small. Show genuine care and concern for people struggling. Start with the ones willing to talk. Don't assume that just because we're gay that we don't support Church teaching. Try to understand how mind-boggling it must be to grow up Catholic and realize that you are in love with someone of the same sex. And then talk to us as if you know how paralyzing and confusing that must be -- even now -- for us.

 

We know your side of the street very well. We live it. Every day. The task is ours to stay faithful to Truth despite the absolute CHAOS we might feel internally, incapable of fully understanding all of this.

 

That's my perspective and not very well worded.

 

I guess my biggest suggestion is just to put the fists down. Unfurl your brow. Speak with love and you will be heard -- eventually.

 

...

 

I just thought of something!

 

I am on Twitter. Since joining a couple years ago, I have made about 40 friends who I know in real life. We have big parties. We brunch and we go to concerts and we throw showers. We are actively involved in each others' lives. And we are ALL OVER the spectrum. Gay. Straight. Bi. Republican. Democrat. Undefined. We get along fabulously. How? Respect.

 

I admit when I'm wrong. I admit when I don't know. I admit that it's tough to hold my position but that it's deeply personal for me. I show them respect for their opinions, even (especially) when I disagree. I speak civilly and expect them to do the same. I applaud what they do well. I support what good they share, what joy they spread. And I never keep it too focused on a hot topic for too long.

 

They HEAR ME about the gay thing, EVEN THOUGH I'm Catholic and -- often, in their eyes -- supporting discrimination against my own kind. They are my biggest cheerleaders, one of my greatest supports. I love them dearly.

 

 

 

... Wow, that was a rambly post. (I am so tired. Yawn.)

[franciscanheart]

I love how you mentioned, "I did not just admit to lesbian sex. I did not just admit to a 'homosexual lifestyle'. I did not just admit to supporting any agenda held by all homosexual persons." Many Christians I've heard don't get that.

 

I was a little confused by your answer to Fink, so let me try to ask a clarifying question. Do you find that there is much difference in ignorance about things in general, among the Catholic communities, or at Phatmass? Do you find more need to raise awareness of the social aspects and meaning of being gay or about how we approach legal matters as a response to our faith?

 

Yes. Yes. That was simple. :like:

[franciscanheart]

I third the question by Arf. 

 

I have know you for a while, not closely, but we've been on good terms.

 

I am glad that you are reiterating that it's ok to be homosexual and that you are obeying the rules of the Church which are especially cumbersome.   Some might even say "condemn" you to a life of loneliness.  Yet I see you as someone who is incredibly strong and has really great friendships with men and women.  I pray that those friendships will help carry you through as

 

I guess I am also curious about the need to "come out".  Because it seems these days with sports stars and movie stars it's just something popular to do.

 

That and I work in an extremely liberal workplace where Catholic values are put down.  I live my live very quielty so as to avoid scorn.  My co-workers drink to excess, have sex with multiple partners, live together before marriage, dump their kids at daycares to have extra days away from them, and support all sorts of crazy things.    I know I'm in the minority and I keep my mouth shut becuase I know what they say about "people like that".  In a prievious job in the same industry I ate lunch every day with a group for 2 years until they found out I listened to a conservative radio station in addition to NPR.  They stopped speaking to me.  So I guess I don't get why anyone would want to upset the apple cart so to speak.  I don't see any purpose in it....maybe I'm not "being me" in every situation, but is that really necessary so long as I'm not lying outright?

 

Only you can know what is right for you, as only I can know what is right for me. I'm sorry you've had those experiences; the world often isn't fair.

 

One day I'll find the words to convey the whole picture. For now, I am finding all words quite inadequate. But then, I've never been very good at expressing myself properly. What I can tell you is that it seems equally difficult for many in the heterosexual population to understand why "coming out" is a big deal as it is for homosexuals to understand why anyone should question it. Coming out is huge for a lot of people. And for a lot of reasons. If you really want to understand, I'd suggest talking to a gay person you love. Ask lots of little questions and you'll start to get the sense of it.

 

I don't have any great answer for you that will put that final nail in the coffin. I just know that it's very confusing growing up in a heterosexual's world as a homosexual. I'm not walking up to randoms on the street and letting them know I'm gay, but I'm also not staying quiet about it just so other people will be comfortable.

 

---

 

People assume straight until you tell them otherwise. Is this okay? Usually. But sometimes it's exhausting. And if it doesn't matter, what harm is there in correcting you?

[arfink]

Fran, how would you suggest we deal with people in the LGBT community who use their sexual orientation as a club? I have personally been sexually harassed by gay men who wanted to hit on me with the express intent of making me uncomfortable, while others have attempted to convince me that I can't possibly be straight because I am not like other men. What do?

[Slappo]

I don't have much time so I'll be brief:

 

My mother left my dad because she's an active homosexual, and my cousin who I used to be close with is also an active homosexual ("used to be close with" is unrelated). Also a close practicing Catholic college friend has SSA. People close to me that are attracted to the same gender isn't really anything new is all I'm trying to point out by saying that. I don't interact with FH any differently than any other PMer, but if it were real life, I would probably act differently knowing her sexual orientation (whether intentional or not). I'm not really proud of that (that I would act differently), but I do know that I would. That's a sad fact though. I act differently around my cousin, my mom, and for the short time that we were still in college together, my college friend. To some extent it is reasonable, but to a major extent it's extremely sad.

 

I really doubt there's many of us who would have zero difference in our relationship with someone we were close with after finding out something we didn't know about their sexual/emotional attractions (I add emotional b/c lets be honest, "liking" someone isn't just about their pantaloons).

 

So I'll try to include in my prayers the next week that we really treat others as children of God first and foremost, because there is no one on this forum that hasn't at one point in their life made a rash judgment about someone else based on skin color, religion, hair style, clothing choice, some other superficial thing, gender, career choice, etc.

 

 

 

Oh, and fran, thanks for making the thread. It's been a long while since I've really thought about how I treat my mom differently and need to continue to work on loving her and letting go of my bitterness.

Edited February 25, 2014 by Slappo

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

What did you admit to? Gay as in overtly proud of women? 

Edited February 25, 2014 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[NotreDame]

Fran, how would you suggest we deal with people in the LGBT community who use their sexual orientation as a club? I have personally been sexually harassed by gay men who wanted to hit on me with the express intent of making me uncomfortable, while others have attempted to convince me that I can't possibly be straight because I am not like other men. What do?

I've personally found gay men to be pretty good wing men.  Although, I guess they were more sort of a cross between a wing-man and date-bait. 

Edited February 25, 2014 by NotreDame

[franciscanheart]

my problem is that Im sick and tired of judgment from gay people + allies.  Exclusion from social events, networking opportunities, family gatherings etc.  because what I believe "gets out" despite my best efforts. Palpable aggression from a hostile majority. How many commencement addresses, ceremonies and speeches etc. I have sat through in which the speaker chooses to explicitly brand people like me as homophobes, and the hundreds or thousands of people assembled around me all clapping in agreement. My favorite is signing on to facebook and being shown a solid purple wall of friends and family proclaiming that people who think like me are disgusting bigots.

 

so here's a thread on phatmass with a  gay person + allies who want to question whether I "really have love" in my heart for gay people. 

Real nice. 

 

I do see where one small piece of what I said could have been misconstrued. I'm sorry I said it in a way which suggested you have no love for homosexual persons.

 

My experience with many on phatmass is a genuine ignorance of what it means to say someone is gay, or rather, to "identify" that way.

 

There is often a great deal of hostility coming from those who cannot condone, whether they realize it or not. It wasn't a statement of fact -- that you definitely do not love gay people -- but a real question. Do we, in our words and actions, show our love for the gay population. If we stop with the defensiveness and get really honest, DO WE? If so, are we showing it? How can we show it better?

 

On the flip side, I'm interested in knowing what straight Catholics are frustrated by. So far in this thread I've seen that you feel persecuted for not agreeing with mainstream America. I get that. I don't agree with them either. And I'm gay.

 

I don't get the hostility either, especially from someone who had just started a thread asking for questions and saying "give me your best shot."   Hiding behind "it's an SSA thing, you wouldn't understand" is a cop-out.  Morals and decorum are universal.

 

I've responded to Arfink's post. I was deeply hurt by some of the comments made. It was indeed hostile -- unnecessarily so -- and not my best moment. I spoke in anger and hurt. It was unbecoming at best.

 

the question was dismissive of a deeply emotional aspect of her life that basically implied "please don't talk about this".  again, I don't think arfink may have intended to imply that, but it was definitely inferred and with good reason--that was definitely the tone of the post.  "why does this topic keep coming up"... "you said it before and it was just blah"... come on now.  that was where the hostile reaction came from.  if someone posted a thread saying they just got engaged--something deeply emotional to them--and you said "why do you keep bringing stuff like this up?" you'd probably get the same level of hostile reaction.  it's not "an ssa" thing.  obviously with ssa there is the moral teachings of the Church and all that so there is a difference, definitely, but she did not say she was engaged in sinful actions, just shared the fact that this romantic attraction is a deep part of her life.  a dismissive reaction to any deep part of one's life, whether it's related to sinful actions or not, with some question that seems to imply that one should be quiet and not talk about it, is going to elicit an emotional response.  that's just universal decorum.

 

Thanks for this and all your posts, Aloysius. My gratitude is deep and lasting. You are a real gent and I am grateful for the years we have spent here together.

 

 

You make fair points, but im also referring to the aggression in her original post which had nothting to do with arfink.
But I know that im viewing all of this through a lense of havimg dealt with frequent fh temper tantrums which had nothing to do with her sharing the deeps secrets of her being.

Maybe im becoming the rude one here now so kll just remove myself from the thread.

 

Was I aggressive in the initial post? It wasn't intended aggressively. Please point out what I said that gave you this impression, and if you're so inclined, please offer some alternate word choices that would have been perceived (at least by you) as less hostile / aggressive.

 

 

you have a point about the "do you really have love in your heart" question... which of course came after the arfink question we all seem to be arguing about lol.  but yes, I can understand your hostile reaction to that question too.  sort of a similar phenomenon, that question seemed to imply that you don't really love people who are gay, hence your hostile reaction to that question.

 

I certainly didn't mean to imply that anyone lacked love. Just a little poke at the possibility that perhaps we all harbor some prejudice we cannot or will not admit readily or easily.

 

 

But HAS a poster ever done more than one thread for getting engaged, married or for having a kid?  I think FH is well within her right and she's made many good points throughout the years with her threads that are essentially about her but you're right.  I think people DO get annoyed when anyone talks about things many times.  Given, it has been years in between, but posters remember.   Please also note that many posters, including myself, are engaged/get married/have kids without ever making a thread on the topic.  For those who aren't getting engaged to other Pham, I do feel like engamement threads are a bit of a "me me me" and I don't understand why they post them either.  But since we're a Catholic message board, I get it in some regards, we want to foster a Catholic community.

 

This is outside of the Catholic community.  But just like in my office where my lifestyle is considered abhorrent (like lilbet has mentioned I've also been unknowlingly demonized for my lack of "openess" to other lifestyles)  I don't go around announcing that I'm engaged or that I don't live with my boyfreind, that I don't use ABC (the women in my office actually remind--eg yell to eachother that it's time to take their pill), and I want my kids to be my kids...not in daycare while I go out drinking.

 

I am curious what would make a person talk about anything.  I think, while poorly said, arf was getting at the same thing.

 

Getting married and having kids are the norm. And to answer your question, yes. If you choose not to see how being gay in our world is a struggle, that's on you. But please don't ask me to pretend like my life isn't made more difficult by this reality. And please don't ask me to stop talking about it. I won't. If you don't like it, don't respond in the threads. You can be a part of the problem as long as you want; I'm choosing a different path.

 

Just because you are private about your life for your own reasons does not mean everyone should be. Is it necessary to comment every time you think someone shares too much? Sorry, but I'm not getting back in the closet for you. Or anyone, for that matter.

 

 

No, the OP did not want to talk about the "issues of the day" when she made the "OP."  She asked for questions.  Then she called the first questioner an idiot and asked him to shut up.  Then when I asked her why she did that, she threatened me with some sort of super-scary rant. 

 

And now you are excusing what is obviously very poor behavior in your usual fluid manner, "I guess he wasn't dismissive, but really he was and she shouldn't have responded that way, except it's obvious why she did and I would have done the same thing."

 

As Aloysius later pointed out (several times -- thanks Al!), I did say the following in the opening post:

 

"I'd like to start talking about the big stuff, the stuff that really matters in our culture today. The stuff that's making headlines and dividing sanctuaries."

 

 

Seriousy?  Namecalling.  So inappropriate.

 

People are curious about their own things.  Arfink was curious WHY.  Is that such a problem.  It's not justification.  With the number of people "coming out" in the media, I really do want to know why...and I think others do too.  If it's to celebrate a personal agenda, to get support...we're not mind readers.

 

And you've reiterated time after time you like women.  So I think people would not even take a tread about you coming out seriously, because overall, the only thing I think I and others have learned is that you like to announce things for spectacle.

 

If you think my coming out to phatmass was a celebration of a personal agenda, you don't know me very well. And you apparently didn't read the post. Coming out has been one of the most agonizing experiences of my life. I've gained a lot by experiencing it, but I do not wish this on anyone.

 

Oh, and for the record: My only agenda is to spread love and understanding. I'm not asking you to celebrate the fact that I'm a lesbian. I'm not asking you to condone lesbian sex. I am asking the whole population of phatmass, though, to stop and consider their word choice, their actions, and the way they approach people like me -- here and everywhere.