Making Out

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

I've been saying nothing for 6 pages of responses now. Normally, I stay out of the debate sub-forum, but the subject of this thread got me started reading it.

 

I want to share a few things, because this is a subject to which I've given a LOT of thought and a lot of study. More importantly, I've been exactly where many of you are right now. I was a single virgin in my teens and twenties, trying to find the answer to "How far is it okay to go?"

 

I'm speaking up because no one here who is married has admitted, "My spouse and I (or my fiance and I) did/currently do more than share short, chaste kisses before we got married." I have no idea if this applies to anyone reading this thread--it may not, but I strongly suspect it does. I understand why no one has talked about because no one wants to start debating about their sex life or share details about their pre-marital love life if there is a chance that they will be criticized. For me, I have nothing left to lose. That time of my life happened before a great many of you were born. But, more importantly, sex is the reason I am no longer married. Sex is difficult for me to talk about, too--although it's gotten easier as I've gotten older. And, I think I have some life experiences that will, at minimum, provide food for thought. So, please listen before you dismiss me as a waste of your time.

 

My experiences in my teens and twenties are very much like yours, although my religious influence at the time was Evangelical Protestant, not Catholic. Despite the huge theological divide between Catholics and Evangelical Protestants, their beliefs and teachings on premarital sex are virtually identical. They may not talk about sacraments, but the Evangelical Protestants talking to me about sex viewed it as just as sacred as Catholics view it. 

 

So that I don't write a book, I am going to limit my thoughts to only one subject--kissing.

 

One reason it's so difficult to write about sex, and one reason it's so difficult to find good counsel about premarital affection, is that all relationships are VERY different from one another. Something that is right for one couple may not be right for another. It really is true that NO ONE except God truly what goes on between a couple other than the couple themselves.

 

Here is the reason I am taking the time to write this note. What I am going to say sounds self-evident, but it isn't in practice:

 

Sexual attraction and having a good sex life within marriage is VERY important. (The only exception to this is Joseph and Mary who took a vow not to have sex in their marriage. I don't think any of you are planning to do this.) This is not an "off-the-wall" statement--I'd be very surprised if any Catholics writing about marriage seriously disagreed. Obviously, a couple can be married without having sex, but it is much tougher. Marriage is tough anyway, even if you truly love your spouse. Having a bad sex life makes things harder.

 

But, if you don't have sex before marriage, how are you supposed to know if you are sexually compatible? Obviously, this is part of the leap of faith you make when you take your marriage vows. And, two spouses who truly love each other can normally work things out. But, it's not "magic." Just because you love each other doesn't mean that you will have a great sex life.

 

This is where I'm going to get personal, and my experience may not apply to anyone else, but I'll share it anyway. I found that one "litmus" test for me was whether I enjoyed kissing a guy. This point may apply more to women than to men. I've never been a 17-year old guy, but I've heard that many (most?) 17-year old guys have stronger sex drives than I (and possibly most women) will ever experience. A lot of this has to do with biology.

 

Speaking as a woman, I discovered that when I kissed some guys I got VERY strong sexual feelings and with some guys I didn't enjoy it at all. There have been times when I met a guy whom I liked a lot and found attractive, but when he kissed me, there was nothing--or worse than nothing. (BTW--Before you dismiss me as having kissed too many guys to be credible, remember that I am divorced through no choice of my own--my so-called-Catholic husband deserted me. And, I have now been single longer than many of you have been alive, so yes, I've kissed some guys.) 

 

Also a note to the guys here who are in your teens and twenties: You will not always be in your teens and twenties. Science has found that a 17-year old guy is at the peak of his sexuality, sexuality measured here not by prowess, but by the strength of the sexual attraction he feels. After 17, guys vary a LOT. Some men remain very sexual as they get older. For most men, however, their sexual impulses aren't as strong when they get older as they were when they were 17. (I think for most guys this is a relief--well, until they hit their 40's/50's/60's.) OT--Studies show that women often don't reach their sexual peak until their 40's. Nature is strange sometimes.

 

Back to kissing. I'm NOT suggesting that any of you--male or female--go around kissing everyone possible. But, if you find you love someone--or at least a very strong like--and this person is a possible future mate, I think it's important to be sure that this person is someone who you find sexually attractive. Ideally, so sexually attractive that self-control is difficult. (One VERY obvious lesson about self-control. Self-control IS possible, especially when it is backed by strong beliefs. But, stay away from alcohol. Just like drinking and driving don't mix--the same is true for alcohol and sexual self-control.) 

 

In talking to other women, I'm not the only one who has found that sharing a kiss is a "litmus test" for finding whether you find a guy sexually attractive. For me, at least, if I didn't like the way a guy kissed, in the end, things just weren't right between us.

 

Another thing that somehow the books don't mention is that just loving someone isn't always enough. I have personally found--and other women I've talked to have also found--that we can really like a guy--he's great on paper--but you don't find him sexually attractive. It's sad but it happens. Sometimes it grows, but often it doesn't. So don't get married unless you KNOW that not only can you not live without your future husband, but that it's taking all your self-control not to have sex with him.

 

The reason this "already too long" talk about kissing is SO important to me is that I broke my own rules--I didn't like the way my husband kissed--and lived to regret it. I didn't like the way my ex-husband kissed. I found myself physically attracted to him, but there was still something missing. However, I truly loved him, and everything else was right in our relationship. I thought being married would cure things in the long run. Those of you who know the ending to my story (which is most of you, I think) know that in the end, I made a tragic mistake. For those of you who have missed my story, after being married for 13 years, my ex-husband confessed to me that he was gay, and more importantly, that he had chosen to lead a gay lifestyle. No choice. No counseling. My marriage was over. How could I be so clueless? Every small action can be interpreted several ways. More importantly, my ex-husband didn't want to be gay and hoped that marriage would "cure" it. Didn't happen. But,

 

So, when you find someone whom you think could be "the one" and all the other pieces are in place. You truly love them, and everything else seems right. (There is another VERY important lesson, namely, that just because you love someone with all your heart, that doesn't meant they are the right spouse for you--but that's another essay.) But, if you don't find that you are so attracted that you find self-control very difficult, that is a red flag. It is not a "deal-breaker"--my situation thankfully is not the norm--but don't get married until you figure out what's going on.

 

A couple of last notes: I know that, particularly in the past, there were arranged marriages and many couples found that "love grew." But, expectations for marriage were different in those days. And, just because a couple stays together doesn't mean they have a good marriage. And, I doubt I'm the only one who got married hoping for a great marriage--divorce was not an option I even considered. There are much stronger challenges couples today than what couples faced in the past. When you get married, you want to have everything possible going for you--including a shared sexual attraction.

 

Also, if you as a couple go further than what you decided when you were feeling more rational (I'm not talking about intercourse--I mean short of intercourse), that means you are normal. God created your sexual urges. They are not sinful in the right time and place. Don't beat yourselves up. Cool off. Go to confession if that is the right thing for you to do. You can back off. It's not impossible to do. And, the fact that you can't keep your hands off each other is a good sign (assuming you truly love each other, as well). It bodes well for your future sex life as husband and wife. And, even though other people won't admit it--it's happened to LOTS of other people, too. And don't drink and kiss. :->

 

Note to FP: This thread has gotten so long, I've forgotten whether you said you wanted to wait until you were married to kiss or wait until you were engaged. I don't know all your circumstances, so I don't completely understand why you feel this way, but I respect your feelings and that there is a good reason for them. I simply strongly urge you to keep an open mind. The decision that is best for you at 17 may very well be different when you are older. Don't force yourself to abide by how you felt at 17 if other circumstances lead you later to think that a kiss is the appropriate (and loving) thing to do. Remember, a BIG part of what is the best decision for you in the future will be the feelings and emotional needs of the woman you love and whom you hope to have as your spouse. She may have feelings and needs that you can't take into account right now because you most likely haven't met her yet. It's okay to change your mind later.

[Selah]

On a semi-related note...

 

Back in my evangelical subculture days, I had a biblezine (it is exactly what it sounds like) tell me that tickling=foreplay.

 

Of course, this was the same general subculture that thought watching Britney Spears videos took away your "spiritual virginity" 

 

PURITY RINGS

 

(I'm in a weird mood)

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

This thread was enough to put me in a weird mood.

 

The good news is that there is only ONE way to lose your virginity. If you don't know what that is, ask your mother.

 

As for "spiritual virginity"--screw that!! (So to speak.)

[PhuturePriest]

This thread was enough to put me in a weird mood.

 

The good news is that there is only ONE way to lose your virginity. If you don't know what that is, ask your mother.

 

As for "spiritual virginity"--screw that!! (So to speak.)

 

My understanding is that you lose your virginity when you have sex, not if you watch pornography or masturbate. I've heard theologians say over and over again that masturbation isn't even a shadow of sex, so if it's not even a shadow, doesn't that mean it definitely doesn't take away your virginity?

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

My understanding is that you lose your virginity when you have sex, not if you watch pornography or masturbate. I've heard theologians say over and over again that masturbation isn't even a shadow of sex, so if it's not even a shadow, doesn't that mean it definitely doesn't take away your virginity?

 

That is 100% correct. (And, that was my point, in case my post wasn't clear--I'm not a master of clarity today. :-< )

[oremus1]

This thread was enough to put me in a weird mood.

 

The good news is that there is only ONE way to lose your virginity. If you don't know what that is, ask your mother.

 

As for "spiritual virginity"--screw that!! (So to speak.)

 

My understanding is that you lose your virginity when you have sex, not if you watch pornography or masturbate. I've heard theologians say over and over again that masturbation isn't even a shadow of sex, so if it's not even a shadow, doesn't that mean it definitely doesn't take away your virginity?

I am not a theologian, I am a candidate for the CV vocation. I too thought it was as you have said. But another poster, who is some sort of professional theologian has said that theologically, French kissing etc is a loss of virginity. Not a spiritual virginity - that is seperate and is lost by e.g. unchaste thoughts but can be restored by copnfession. No, she says that loss of physical virginity is by experiencing veneral pleasure with another, or also by solo masturbations. Including kissing, or possibly in your case, that humping-dance. She makes a detailed explanation in the post below, plus if you scroll down she supports her explanation in detail.

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/132891-consecrated-virgin-in-the-world-50-words-or-less/?p=2657302

 

Edited February 26, 2014 by oremus1

[Maggyie]

This is discussed on the consecrated virginity thread which nobody acquitted themselves well on... basically some people believe that yes, masturbating or making out or watching a music video or a movie can cause you to lose your Virginity with a capital v. If you have ever done these things and enjoyed them, you are no longer a virgin.

 

EDIT: Oremus posted the link... needless to say I think that viewpoint isn't very sound.

Edited February 26, 2014 by Maggie

[MissyP89]

"That humping-dance."

 

.....................................................................

 

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

I am not a theologian, I am a candidate for the CV vocation. I too thought it was as you have said. But another poster, who is some sort of professional theologian has said that theologically, French kissing etc is a loss of virginity. Not a spiritual virginity - that is seperate and is lost by e.g. unchaste thoughts but can be restored by copnfession. No, she says that loss of physical virginity is by experiencing veneral pleasure with another, or also by solo masturbations. Including kissing, or possibly in your case, that humping-dance. She makes a detailed explanation in the post below, plus if you scroll down she supports her explanation in detail.

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/132891-consecrated-virgin-in-the-world-50-words-or-less/?p=2657302

 

 

I'm not even going to read that thread because I completely disagree. And, I think that such a view could easily cause needless guilt.

 

Note: I have no idea of what the Catholic Church teaches on this, so if the Church teaches something different, I am not deliberately trying to go against Church views.

[oremus1]

This is discussed on the consecrated virginity thread which nobody acquitted themselves well on... basically some people believe that yes, masturbating or making out or watching a music video or a movie can cause you to lose your Virginity with a capital v. If you have ever done these things and enjoyed them, you are no longer a virgin.

 

EDIT: Oremus posted the link... needless to say I think that viewpoint isn't very sound.

 

Just to be clear, I am not sure I agree with it, nor indeed fully understand it.
 

"That humping-dance."

 

.....................................................................

 

If you scroll upwards you can see how he described the waltz....
I was not referring to the horizontal dance or anything.
 

I'm not even going to read that thread because I completely disagree. And, I think that such a view could easily cause needless guilt.

 

Note: I have no idea of what the Catholic Church teaches on this, so if the Church teaches something different, I am not deliberately trying to go against Church views.

I am not sure I agree. I am not sure if it is the church's views. I dont know.

[Selah]

"That humping-dance."

 

.....................................................................

 

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[oremus1]

iwillnotpostthatgifiwillnotpostthatgifiwillnotpostthatgif

Just to be clear to the minors, I was referring to the waltz described in this post http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/133149-making-out/?p=2658571
 

[PhuturePriest]

Just to be clear to the minors, I was referring to the waltz described in this post http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/133149-making-out/?p=2658571
 

 

That is how the waltz is properly done. That is not a "humping dance", however, as there are no pelvic movements. If anything, it's the "close contact that's awkward to do with your dance instructor's wife" dance.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

That is how the waltz is properly done. That is not a "humping dance", however, as there are no pelvic movements. If anything, it's the "close contact that's awkward to do with your dance instructor's wife" dance.

 

From the little I know of the waltz, I believe it was considered scandalous when it was first introduced.

 

Nowadays, the waltz is not considered scandalous or sexual--but it also sounds as if most people are not doing it correctly.

 

However, it sounds as if you are able to dance the waltz with your dance instructor's wife and are able to concentrate on your dancing without having sexual thoughts.

 

Sometimes I think that people who are looking for scandal will see it everywhere, even when the participants are simply perfecting their dance skills for a competition.

 

Even Freud said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

[franciscanheart]

Sometimes I think that people who are looking for scandal will see it everywhere, even when the participants are simply perfecting their dance skills for a competition.

Even Freud said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

This.