Making Out

[tinytherese]

I like reading Seraphic Singles' blog. I disagree with her opinion made in this post that it's okay for engaged couples to make out. It strikes me as foreplay. http://seraphicsinglescummings.blogspot.com/2014/02/scandal-and-perserverance.html

 

 

Life experience leads me to think "how far can we go" for Singles means a brief and chaste kiss-on-the-lips. And, yes, making out with an attractive man you have a crush on is one of the most intoxicating things on earth, sweeter than wine. But too bad. Fiancés (the REAL kind, with a wedding date) and husbands only.

 

 

Some of the comments about this trouble me more though. I know that for some people, making out wouldn't lead them to sin, but there are those who say that if you don't make out that something is wrong with your relationship.

 

 

Antigone in NYC said...

 

Oh, Seraphic, I think this is very, very bad advice to give younger women. Very, very, very, VERY few emotionally healthy men are going to propose to a woman with whom they have shared only a "brief and chaste" kiss on the lips.

Please, staying a virgin until marriage and finding good, moral, healthy men to date is good enough. By all means, keep your clothes on. Set limits. But please don't set up impossible standards for women--younger women especially--to think they should follow. It's not living in reality, and reality is often how God speaks to us.

I used to believe things like this in my 20s, came around in my 30s, and don't want to see others waste time and precious years.

My parish priest has a good standard for physical affection---"the level of physical affection should be equal to the level of commitment." It's a general rule, sure, but I find it helpful. Complete commitment = marriage = sex.

 

 

***Whoops! Meant to type "hard enough" not "good enough."

 

 

Antigone in NYC said...

 

I am saying that very few contemporary, healthy, Western men will propose to a woman with whom they have shared only the brief, chaste kiss. And I'm guessing many (though not all) of us reading are Western women.

I've seen men fall in love with crushes whom they have never kissed, yes, but a proposal is a different thing.

Are there some men who would? I'm sure there are a few wonderful guys who would, esp. in more conservative subcultures. But in my experience in Catholic circles, a lot of the guys that might had emotional issues and were generally uncomfortable with their sexuality.

As faithful Catholics we women have a tough enough time finding a spouse (at least on my side of the pond, the ratio of men to women at Catholic events skews around 30/70), we shouldn't take on unrealistic and unrequired standards. (I can't help but think of the Parisees heaping unnecessary burdens on on others' heads.)

By all means, if a woman feels called by God to make such a resolution, she should do so. But she should understand the potential consequences of her actions, ie. significantly reducing her chances of marriage. Just like the 17th Century Jesuit missionary needed to understand the possibility of a brutal martyrdom (sorry for the dramatic comparison!).

 

 

Anonymous for this time said...

 

I am currently engaged, and I agree with Antigone. I would have found it strange if we had made a much more serious commitment to each other (public engagement) without any increase in our physical affection for each other. I mean, thanks to NFP classes he already knows my daily temperature readings and other more intimate data.

Our physical relationship does have an impact on our overall relationship -- for example, if I haven't initiated kissing in awhile, he'll notice and say something -- not because he just really needs to "get some" but because there's usually some underlying reason that we need to discuss before things get back to normal. We are learning those dynamics at a reduced level in the same way that we're learning NFP, discussing finances and children in pre-marital counseling, and setting new boundaries with our families of origin in preparation for a healthy marriage. It's not a "trial run" in the same way that living together would be (and no, we haven't had sex), but it is recognizing that it doesn't have to be 0 to 60 either.

For me to not kiss him until our wedding day would be the equivalent of him not saying "I love you" until our wedding day. Maybe if you both agree well in advance that those will be the parameters of your relationship, it can work, but it seems more like a calling of heroic virtue rather than a general expectation.

 

 

Antigone in NYC said...

 

I think the potential sinfulness of making out depends very much on the circumstances (ie. the nature of the relationship and commitment, what is being expressed, how long you indulge). A brief, chaste kiss could be sinful and unkind under certain circumstances (ie. you have no real interest in the man or are kissing him out of a sense of obligation or for a little thrill for yourself). In that case, sin would be less about misplaced physical arousal, and more about the deceit behind the kiss.

No woman should ever be making out with a man if she doesn’t want to—just as no woman should be chastely pecking a man if she doesn’t want to. No good man (Catholic or otherwise) should pressure a woman to do ANYTHING she doesn’t want to. But a lot of good men (good, upright, marriageable men) might walk away. It cuts both ways: I wouldn’t absolutely rule it out (esp. if affection had been clearly and comfortably demonstrated as described above), but as a 30-something contemporary Western woman I think I would be extremely nervous about marrying an older (30 plus) contemporary Western man who had only expressed his physical affection by holding hands and a few brief, closed mouth kisses.

I guess it really does come down to a question of whether making out is always sinful (I don’t). I think we can both agree that we are never given license to sin; ends do not justify means. But I stand by my argument that Catholics who intend to reserve sex for marriage have a difficult enough road ahead of us: placing even greater restrictions on physical affection in contemporary Western society restricts your potential matches to a very, very small pool, which is unfortunately wriggling with many (not all, but many) emotionally stunted personalities.

 

 

Anon for now said...

 

I do certainly agree that making out is a form of foreplay, and can be very murky territory for a dating couple. But I do sort of side with Antigone (etc) for this one, in that physical affection can, in certain settings, mirror emotion affection, and I would be worried about being in a headed-toward marriage type relationship with a man who never even tried to do more than a simple kiss.

Perhaps I'm biased; I have a close family friend who, having been seduced by a college boyfriend into giving away her virginity and sorely regretting it, was ever so grateful that her next boyfriend never pressured her to do anything beyond chaste, quick kissing on the lips. Soon after they married it turned out that he was a closeted gay man who, because he worked in politics (it was the Nineties), needed to be married to a pretty, educated woman like my friend. They divorced within two years, and it took her a very long time to get over it.

Obviously that's a terrible, probably unusual case, but just fyi.

 

 

[Slappo]

Not much to debate here. I'd have to agree with you TT. Making out is pretty much foreplay (especially if you're talking about open mouth). Maybe there'd be some reasonable arguments for a "closed mouth kissing session" but... not really.

[CrossCuT]

IMO, it depends on the people. I dont think you can make one sweeping generalization that making out = foreplay. Thats a bit of a stretch I think. 

The severity of making out for one couple might not be the same as another so its hard to define the word in such an extreme way.

 

I think the points some of the people you quoted above were very good. Physical attraction isnt a masked evil deed waiting to rob us of our chastity...we arent Puritans. Yes, people can abuse physical attraction from a moral perspective but I dont believe we ought to demonize it. Just know yourself, know where you and your significant other are in the relationship, respect eachother, and all will end well. There is no need to set such silly rules like "No making out", or "We can only kiss on mondays and hug on tuesdays" lol or something else silly.

[blazeingstar]

There are many lines that are different for different people.  My fiancee and I kissed more than quick peck on the lips, but less than full out tongue kissing before we were engaged.

 

During our engagement we've found that the rules for us can be different than others.  There are certain parts on me that are are very sensual, and there are others that are typically considered sensual that are not all that.

 

I agree with Crosscut, the generalization that all making out foreplay is wrong.  And what foreplay consists of looks different for every couple.  We are called to chastity but not to not touch our future spouses.

[PhuturePriest]

It really depends on the couple. There are some who can handle it, but there are a lot who ended up screwing up and losing their virginity because they started out with an innocent make out session. I've never made out, but knowing myself like I do, I can't imagine sex not crossing my mind if I was making out with a girl. It just seems like the next logical step in my mind. That being said, I'm a 17 year old boy, so that might have something to do with it.

[CrossCuT]

Its totally normal for sex to cross your mind when you are with someone you are attracted to in that way. That thought crosses my mind all the time with my bf but the difference is when you do or dont act on that impulse. 

 

Some people do, some people dont. 

[PhuturePriest]

Its totally normal for sex to cross your mind when you are with someone you are attracted to in that way. That thought crosses my mind all the time with my bf but the difference is when you do or dont act on that impulse. 

 

Some people do, some people dont. 

 

Well, one term I don't like is "How far can we go?" or "How far is too far?" As Chris Stefanick says, if he was driving and his wife and children were in the car, it would be disordered to see how close he could drive to the yellow lines without crashing into oncoming traffic. Making out is certainly a case-by-case basis, but I'm not going to be so arrogant as to think if I were really tempted, there's no way in a million years I would ever give into temptation. I'm not saying people who think this are arrogant, but for me personally it definitely would be, and I wouldn't want to take that risk for me or for her. If I do supposedly love this girl, my first priority will be the salvation of her soul. I wouldn't want to risk that because I thought making out might be fun and we accidentally ended up going too far.

[CrossCuT]

Well, one term I don't like is "How far can we go?" or "How far is too far?" As Chris Stefanick says, if he was driving and his wife and children were in the car, it would be disordered to see how close he could drive to the yellow lines without crashing into oncoming traffic. Making out is certainly a case-by-case basis, but I'm not going to be so arrogant as to think if I were really tempted, there's no way in a million years I would ever give into temptation. I'm not saying people who think this are arrogant, but for me personally it definitely would be, and I wouldn't want to take that risk for me or for her. If I do supposedly love this girl, my first priority will be the salvation of her soul. I wouldn't want to risk that because I thought making out might be fun and we accidentally ended up going too far.

 

Awesome! Then you know yourself and can make a decision on the matter. Thats great! :)

[KnightofChrist]

It seems erroneous to argue that passionate kissing, making out, or french kissing etc can be at times not form of foreplay for a couple that is attracted to one another. If passionate kissing with someone we are attracted to leads to our having inflamed passions, and induces sexual arousal that could lead to sex, or being tempted to have sex then it is a form of foreplay. Romantic intimate acts that inflame passions and induce sexual arousal is the meaning of foreplay.

Edited February 19, 2014 by KnightofChrist

[CrossCuT]

So arousal without sexual intercourse is as sinful as intercourse itself?

[MissyP89]

It's one of those things that needs to be honestly evaluated and talked about between the couple, and possibly re-evaluated down the road. Different relationships I have been in have been more or less open to physical intimacy; it really depends on the individual people involved.

 

In my current relationship we have had seasons of being very physically affectionate but we have also had times of needing to scale that back for a variety of reasons. It's never static -- "this is the place we're at and this is where it will stay until our wedding day" -- as we are constantly looking back and confirming we are still in a place that is respectful and truly self-giving.

 

I think the biggest question to ask in this area is "What is my intention?" Are we out to see how far we can get with our partner? Are we out to use them or fulfill some selfish need? 

 

There are a whole spectrum of answers to these questions. It all comes down to a need for frankness and honesty between partners.

[MissyP89]

ETA: I do believe there is a good reason that the Church is very cautious and warns that certain things can be near occasions of sin. But whether or not it truly constitutes a near occasion of sin depends (at least in my mind) on the maturity of the couple. It's one thing for a 40-year-old unmarried couple to make out -- for them it may simply be an expression of closeness and playfulness -- and another for a 16-year-old couple to do it.

[KnightofChrist]

So arousal without sexual intercourse is as sinful as intercourse itself?

No, and I wasn't saying that. However since you've brought it up sometimes it could be or very close, because as Christ says "whosoever shall look on a woman to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart."

However that wasn't the point I was trying to make, rather that passionate kissing between two unmarried persons will naturally lead to their passions being inflamed, and increased sexual arousal, which could at least be a near occasion of sin for them.

[tinytherese]

What disturbed me were the posts that said if your boyfriend doesn't want to make out with you, then he has an unhealthy view of physical affection and that some men will dump a woman who won't make out with him.

What if making out for one or both of you is a near occasion of sin? It doesn't necessarily mean that you're being scrupulous. Some people just can't handle it and remain chaste.

[cmaD2006]

Everything ok thus far ... but just a gentle reminder to watch what is said(written) and how explicit it is.  Remember that there are a lot of minors on the phorum :).