How Entrenched Is Homosexuality In The Seminaries?

[Isidore_of_Seville]

The Church said those with "deep-seated homosexual tendencies" are not to be ordained. That is incredibly vague for a reason. It's done on a case-by-case basis, as you are advocating. I don't see how we're debating about this.

 

I just wish they said "inappropriate sexual tendencies" instead. That's a much better way to stay vague without singling out a specific group of people. Pretty sure Jesus taught people to love and treat people as themselves. 

[CrossCuT]

I just wish they said "inappropriate sexual tendencies" instead. That's a much better way to stay vague without singling out a specific group of people. Pretty sure Jesus taught people to love and treat people as themselves. 

 

I think that is way better. It includes straight people too who have troubles with their sexuality.

[Lilllabettt]

Orly? I dont agree with the church's stance on the morality of homosexual acts? Please tell me other things I dont actually believe.

 

Homie, if you got back and read the posts Ive made in this thread  more clearly, youll see that I have very specifically mentioned the entrance of homosexuals that are celibate and faithful to the Catholic church. Does that translate to something else for you?

 

Nothing you quoted form past conversations states that I think the things are you accusing me of.

 

The things I was suggesting on those posts was for people to take a new approach to the subject because as of right now, everyone apparently things that homosexuals are promiscuous pigs who are all lumped into the same category. Do you guys even know any homosexuals? Im pretty sure that there are tons and tons that dont make the news for creeping into peoples bedrooms and night trying to steal their innocence. 

 

That is the mentality restart I am referring to. We need to stop with the judgment and the marginalization of minority groups. We need to start letting our actions be infucenced by christian love not christian hate and judgment.

 

And when I said I was open to any possibility, I should have been more clear that it simply refers to intelligent dialogue between people who treat each other decently. I find it really sad and small minded that the simply act of being open to discussion even if one does not choose to take on a new idea is treated as though they are of fallen faith and a lost cause.

 

That is the main problem in society...this attitude. I pray Lilllabettt that whatever personal demons you have, that you can overcome them and be at peace with yourself and others.

 

The last few posts by people on this thread is a PERFECT summary of why the secular world thinks we are bigoted, hateful, bible thumbing jerks. I mean listen to us. We are making HORRIBLE generalizations and applying it to an entire group of people, using our faith to discriminate in certain states, and then we are treating those who want dialgue as if they are the mud of the earth. Where is the christian spirit? Is there ANYONE on PM who will actually have a decent human discussion with me about this? Like I am sooooo ashamed of this website with the people that represent it. 

 

A person cant even come on here and even whisper a PEEP of a potentially "radical" view without being handed the 3rd degree. Good lord.

What Im saying isnt even that radical.

 

 

Im not asking for active homosexuals to become prreists so that they can rape everyone.

Im literally asking, imploring, SOMEONE to give me a reason why a CELIBATE, FAITHFUL homosexual cannot be a priest. I am not condoning homosexual acts. Im not condoning rape. I am not condoning a break from the church.

 

 

ffs

 

CrossCut,

 

I think your conflict with the Church troubles you, and that is why you choose to express your opinion on this subject in nebulous and obscure ways. But what you are thinking comes through anyway, to anyone who can read. So I want to encourage you to not be afraid to have the courage of your convictions. When your beliefs change, that does not make you a bad person or a "weak" person. The only weak thing is in failing to be honest with yourself and other people about what it is you believe. 

 

2nd, if you are not aware, you should know that your suggestion that people who disagree with you do so because they don't "actually know" gay people is an ignorant and offensive one. My roommate and best friend in Boston is gay. I was friends with her before she realized that about herself,  and I am friends with her now that she is dating chicks. She knows exactly how I feel on this issue and it does not prevent us from loving each other. She has defended me many times from the newer members of her circle of friends who want to assume that my fidelity to Church teaching means that I hate gay people.

 

3rd, I do not know where you get the idea that gay men are prohibited from becoming priests. There are holy faithful homosexual seminarians who will be ordained this year. To restate my earlier point - perhaps your perspective - that you are "open" to the idea that the Church will change her judgment on the morality of homosexual acts - is influencing your reading of the Church's guidance re: people with SSA and seminary. 

[CrossCuT]

CrossCut,

 

I think your conflict with the Church troubles you, and that is why you choose to express your opinion on this subject in nebulous and obscure ways. But what you are thinking comes through anyway, to anyone who can read. So I want to encourage you to not be afraid to have the courage of your convictions. When your beliefs change, that does not make you a bad person or a "weak" person. The only weak thing is in failing to be honest with yourself and other people about what it is you believe. 

 

2nd, if you are not aware, you should know that your suggestion that people who disagree with you do so because they don't "actually know" gay people is an ignorant and offensive one. My roommate and best friend in Boston is gay. I was friends with her before she realized that about herself,  and I am friends with her now that she is dating chicks. She knows exactly how I feel on this issue and it does not prevent us from loving each other. She has defended me many times from the newer members of her circle of friends who want to assume that my fidelity to Church teaching means that I hate gay people.

 

3rd, I do not know where you get the idea that gay men are prohibited from becoming priests. There are holy faithful homosexual seminarians who will be ordained this year. To restate my earlier point - perhaps your perspective - that you are "open" to the idea that the Church will change her judgment on the morality of homosexual acts - is influencing your reading of the Church's guidance re: people with SSA and seminary. 

 

Actually to be honest, I was troubled up until recently. I had a really hard time coming to terms with the hatred and discrimination held against homosexuals. And for the first time in a while, I actually feel really good with where I am at with my faith. :love: I feel for the first time, I am finally being honest with myself and its a very very  very good feeling. I have been feeling closer to God and that my experience with him is enriched. Im no longer struggling with the same pains I had been before. Its truly a blessed experience.

 

And the only reason I asked if people knew gay people was more of a rhetorical. If you havent noticed, people have been generalizing homosexuals and sexual predators which is sexist and wrong.

 

And I am glad that we all agree on that homosexuals can still be priests. I was under the impression that people were very against it. My bad. At least I know that we are on the same page. :)

 

 

Love!!

Edited March 29, 2014 by CrossCuT

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

ban t.v, radio and movies for priests, monks, nuns and seminarians. It seems this is a recent serious problem within the church if it is, and i bet it stems from these.

[NotreDame]

I didn't mean to trivialize it. But there are many more important things than the sexuality of celibate men.

 

Well, there are more important things than the sexuality of chaste men.   Chaste being different than celibate. 

 

Honestly, I doubt a chaste person would be asked to leave a seminary and I don't think the instructions to seminaries were meant to weed out chaste individuals of whatever persuasion, since - thought I could be wrong - maintaining chastity implies a certain degree of sexual maturity - at least in men, as I understand it.
 

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

¹nat·u·ral

 adjective \ˈna-chÉ™-rÉ™l, Ëˆnach-rÉ™l\

: existing in nature and not made or caused by people : coming from nature

: not having any extra substances or chemicals added : not containing anything artificial

: usual or expected

 

Homosexuality is completely natural by definition. It should go without saying, but knowing this crowd I think I should say it anyway; if your definition of the word 'natural' does not match the definition above, then you are using the word incorrectly. Homosexual behavior has been directly observed in many many many animals of all classes:

 

 

 

I wonder who Jesus would want to keep out of the church. I wonder who Jesus would not want preaching his good word. 

 

1. I am a human being not an animal. 2. homosexuality is a sexual act, meaning anal intercourse. As far as i'm aware this is meaning homosexuals can not be priests because priests are celibate, if a person is celibate they are not performing any sexual act upon a man or women. You can not be a homo sexual and a priest at the same time without breaking your vow of celibacy, same goes for any sexually active priest whether homosexual or not, except in the case of married priests. What happened to fr corapi? Perhaps he can't perform his priestly duties any more because he thinks or the magesterium thinks he can not remain celibate or something. Honestly guys i think the same thing would happen to someone that without a doubt was committing homosexual acts.

Edited March 29, 2014 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[arfink]

¹nat·u·ral

 adjective \ˈna-chÉ™-rÉ™l, Ëˆnach-rÉ™l\

: existing in nature and not made or caused by people : coming from nature

: not having any extra substances or chemicals added : not containing anything artificial

: usual or expected

 

Homosexuality is completely natural by definition. It should go without saying, but knowing this crowd I think I should say it anyway; if your definition of the word 'natural' does not match the definition above, then you are using the word incorrectly. Homosexual behavior has been directly observed in many many many animals of all classes:

 

List of Animals that have displayed homosexual behavior: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior

 

Informational video on the study and observation of homosexuality in nature and it's history: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZfIeFDZtWE

 

Alright, now that that's out of the way I have another point I'd like to make, and that is that A PERSONS PROMISCUITY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THEIR SEXUAL ORIENTATION. If you think that that's not true, just take a look at the abortion numbers around the world. Those aren't homosexuals having all those unintended pregnancies, ya know.

 

In summary, homosexuality is not a disorder, it's a sexual orientation. Just like being black isn't a disease, it's a race. Being a homosexual has never stopped anyone from doing anything good and has never caused anyone to do anything bad. Lust exists in all of us, we are all sinners. Gay lust is no different than straight lust.

 

I wonder who Jesus would want to keep out of the church. I wonder who Jesus would not want preaching his good word. My guess is nobody, and that's why homosexuals have not been disallowed to enter the seminary, and hopefully they never will be.

 

Lilllabett, I don't want to preach to you but I think you sound really angry at something and I hope that just knowing that there are people out there who really want to spread the good word or Jesus to others, despite the church's position on their sexual orientation, is a pretty incredible display of the power and love of God. Knowledge = Truth = God. Always search for God in everything.

 

 

The problem is that the definition of natural (and of nature) which the church uses when it describes homosexuality as unnatural has nothing to do with "nature" as you put it here. It's based on St. Thomas Aquinas' notions of human nature as built in the image and likeness of God. Thus, what is natural to man is only what he has been made by God to be, mainly, that he has been made to be like God.

 

When God made man and woman he commanded them to be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth, and subdue it. This command was not given to the animals, by the way. Only to humans. From this we understand that human sexuality must in a certain sense be ordered towards procreation, and this is as a result of our human nature. Do do less with our sexuality would be to do harm to our God-given nature.
 

[Eliakim]

Eliakim i doubt your source is very reliable but also good seeking and it is good you have bought your seeking to others and also i just realised you said sub culture so that means a minority. God bless you brother in christ.

 

Jesus iz LORD. :)

 

You as well, Tab'le

"Conservative church"? You speak as if the Catholic Church is divided between a liberal Church and a Conservative one.

 

Perceptive to catch this.  Cafeteria Catholics like to divide the church that way.   What the Lord calls an "abomination" is by no means trivial. 

Interesting thought:

 

When I had that amazing talk with my spiritual director last week and I told him I plan to apply this Fall, he was happy, but he specifically told me to watch out for "propositions" at seminary. He told me that when he was at seminary, he got propositions by fellow seminarians, and even by the monks. One night he said he had to put a chair under the doorknob to keep a monk out of his room. Obviously this doesn't mean every homosexual who is a seminarian will proposition other seminarians, but this rule set by the Church didn't just fall out of the sky. It was set in because a lot of bad things happened with homosexuality in seminaries during the past few decades.

 

Ok, yeah, looks like things have become so bad that the Pope needs to start being the shepherd and root out this evil.  Where are you Future Priest, San Fransisco? 

 

That's horrible.  Even worse when it comes from one's superiors:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bollard_%28Catholic_priest%29

 

http://attrition.org/misc/ee/religion.jesuits

 

Bollard, who entered the seminary in 1988, said the harassment started in mid-1991, when he got a birthday card from priest Drew Sotelo showing a naked man, with suggestive language. Another pornographic card from Father Anton Harris, Bollard's supervisor, read, "Thought this might inspire some theological thoughts," the suit said.

Bollard also said he turned down Harris' invitations to go to gay bars. Thomas Gleeson, then president of the seminary and now the Jesuits' national training director, propositioned him twice and told him that "if we are going to remain friends, we are going to have to deal with sex," Bollard said.

He said his complaints eventually went to Father John Privett, the Provincial or head of the West Coast Jesuits, who gave him a coffee cup inscribed "No Whining," advised him to avoid lawyers and asked him to release the Jesuits from liability.

 

I do think it's gotten better, especially judging from the testimonies from young current seminarians here on this and other threads. 
 

 

Yep, the Church full of wolves.  May God protect His faithful and root them out. 

 

E

[Fidei Defensor]

1. I am a human being not an animal. 2. homosexuality is a sexual act, meaning anal intercourse. As far as i'm aware this is meaning homosexuals can not be priests because priests are celibate, if a person is celibate they are not performing any sexual act upon a man or women. You can not be a homo sexual and a priest at the same time without breaking your vow of celibacy, same goes for any sexually active priest whether homosexual or not, except in the case of married priests. What happened to fr corapi? Perhaps he can't perform his priestly duties any more because he thinks or the magesterium thinks he can not remain celibate or something. Honestly guys i think the same thing would happen to someone that without a doubt was committing homosexual acts.

I hate to be picky, but human beings are indeed Animalia

[Maggyie]

Duplicate

Edited March 29, 2014 by Maggie

[Maggyie]

 

Homosexuality is completely natural by definition. It should go without saying, but knowing this crowd I think I should say it anyway; if your definition of the word 'natural' does not match the definition above, then you are using the word incorrectly. Homosexual behavior has been directly observed in many many many animals of all classes:

 

List of Animals that have displayed homosexual behavior: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior

 

Informational video on the study and observation of homosexuality in nature and it's history: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZfIeFDZtWE

 

 

Critical thinking isn't your strong suit, is it. Not to be mean - I want to encourage you to educate yourself! ANYONE can be taught to be a critical thinker.

 

I love when people trot out the "But I saw it at the ZOO!" argument. Because then I can ask them if they realize how common things like sexual cannibalism are in the animal kingdom. If you want me to provide you a list of animals that have been observed killing and eating their mate after sex, I can,  but I don't want this to be more awkward for you than it already is.  Point being, I don't think you understand the vocabulary theologians are deploying when they call something natural or unnatural. It's not what you think it is. 

 

If you are interested in learning I suggest getting an intro to Thomas off Amazon and starting from the basics.

[Vitamin]

Critical thinking isn't your strong suit, is it. Not to be mean - I want to encourage you to educate yourself! ANYONE can be taught to be a critical thinker.

I love when people trot out the "But I saw it at the ZOO!" argument. Because then I can ask them if they realize how common things like sexual cannibalism are in the animal kingdom. If you want me to provide you a list of animals that have been observed killing and eating their mate after sex, I can, but I don't want this to be more awkward for you than it already is. Point being, I don't think you understand the vocabulary theologians are deploying when they call something natural or unnatural. It's not what you think it is.

If you are interested in learning I suggest getting an intro to Thomas off Amazon and starting from the basics.

Kinky. However, I think the most unnatural thing going on here isn't gays, but rather how obsessed this phourum is with them.

[Lilllabettt]

people will love and trust you more if you learn to spell phorum.

but yeah. phatmass has been pretty gay lately.

[PhuturePriest]

people will love and trust you more if you learn to spell phorum.

but yeah. phatmass has been pretty gay lately.

 

It's just an attempt to make the phorum a little bit more fabulous. We should start by taking away the red and black background and replacing it with some colors that pop. I vote sun yellow and hot pink.