Eliakim Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 (edited) As someone who considered the seminary but stopped after learning about the following, I would like to discuss the question of how prevalent the homosexual subculture is in seminaries. The following is an article from the Daily Mail: "He claims that roughly a quarter of newly ordained Catholic priests are gay (‘in line with most caring professions’) and says experiencing homosexual urges is a natural part of the seminary experience. ‘If you compare it to any other all-male environment, such as the Army or prison, where men are cooped up, you get strong friendships or crushes,’ he says. ‘At seminary, that’s part of the experience: how you cope the first time you get a crush on someone. ‘It happens to straight men as well as gay. I’ve heard people joke that the difference between a gay and straight man is six pints of lager — and part of seminary is about seeking to see how you cope. Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz2md2HZVc6 Here is another, again easily found, that cites other priests, some of which say that even a good deal higher percentage are homosexual:http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_rcc1.htm The issue is not whether a couple men with homosexual tendencies are going through the seminary, struggling to follow the Lord along with everyone else, but rather how would a homosexual subculture (again, which certainly does seem sizable) affect the seminarians who give up so much to give their life completely to the Lord? There are some like the above priest who for whatever motives, will shrug it off, but I believe there are other priests of God who see the gravity of this issue and will not seek to minimize, but expose it. I have had people that went through seminary relate to me that sometimes when folks would report gay behavior they themselves would be removed soon after. I truly wonder how bad this all really is. E Edited February 14, 2014 by Eliakim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisa Marie Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Can we not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eliakim Posted February 14, 2014 Author Share Posted February 14, 2014 Can we not? This is exactly why the problem persists. Sunlight is the best disinfectant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfink Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 I spent 4 years in a seminary. I saw plenty of guys who never had any formal accusations made against them get ejected the very first instant anyone on staff thought they might be gay. I honestly haven't see any of this gay subculture in the seminary croutons you're talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruciatacara Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 I don't know how prevalent it used to be but I think there is a strong response now to reject seminary applicants who indicate that they have SSA. I only have anecdotal evidence to support this but a friend of mine applied to seminary and went through the psychological evaluation with flying colors but when it came to his panel interview he admitted to having SSA feelings. He didn't think this would disqualify him because he was chaste/celibate and planned to remain so. Despite having been an ideal applicant in every other way (references, 12 years as altar server, etc), he was rejected. He was devastated and couldn't figure out why but my first thought was - you admitted to potential homosexuality and they got scared. I could be totally wrong about this and am willing to read other opinions, but honestly, my friend had nothing else that could have been considered disqualifying in any way, and at the time he was working as a grounds caretaker for a convent and had great references from the nuns as well as from his diocesan Bishop, pastor etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luigi Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 I think there is much less homosexuality in the seminaries these days than there used to be, as a direct result of the accusations against priests, as others have mentioned. I think most diocese (but perhaps not some of the orders) are now being absolutely rigid - zero tolerance, if you will. Additionally, Benedict XVI said quite firmly that those with SSA should not be admitted to seminaries, and I think the seminaries are trying to follow that mandate. I've talked with a large number of people including priests, former priests, seminarians, former seminarians, and openly gay men who have been involved to some extent or another with gay clergy. It still amounts to only anecdotal evidence, and pertains to my diocese only. But what I've pieced together is: - Beginning even before WW II, gay men began to be enter the seminary. (Here I'm talking about the US - clearly there have been any number of gay priests in any number of countries over the centuries, sometimes well documented.) They were not "obviously gay," but they were active to some extent or another. Those who admitted them to the seminary didn't even ask about SSA back then - it wasn't nearly as common, or at least it wasn't talked about. - A secret subculture of gay priests developed in the diocese, including within the seminary and the diocesan hierarchy. Those who were already in the subculture protected and fostered incoming gay seminarians. One former priest described it as similar to a married man going into a pornography shop and seeing another married man from down the block - you won't say anything to him because he knows you're not supposed to be there, and he won't say anything to you because you know he's know supposed to be there. Under these conditions, it would be entirely possible for a seminarian who complained about gays in the seminary to a rector or somebody to be expelled himself, if the rector were part of the subculture. - Others have said they entered the seminary because they knew they were gay back when it was not socially accepted, they didn't have a girlfriend, and people were asking why not - nice-looking guy like you - graduated from college - when are you getting married - that kind of thing. By entering the seminary, they stopped all the questions and brought honor and glory to their Catholic family. - In the years after Vatican II, many heterosexuals priests left the priesthood to get married, thus increasing the percentage of homosexual priests remaining in active priesthood. Just as there was a lot of "white flight" from certain neighborhoods, there was a lot of "straight flight" from the priesthood and the seminaries. - Others said a fairly large number of heterosexuals left the seminary because their faith in the diocese (not God or Catholicism) was shaken by seeing gay men in the seminary and the Church hierarchy. They didn't want to deal with it - or didn't know how to deal with it, so they left. This, too, led to gay priests becoming a greater proportion of those who got ordained, and of course who eventually staffed the hierarchy including the seminaries. - Others have said that two movements dovetailed to give them hope that the Church would eventually accept gay priests - Vatican II in the early 1960's and the gay liberation movement starting in the late 1960's. I know for a fact that certain professors in my diocesan seminary used to teach that "it's only a matter of time before the Church allows married priests," encouraging those who thought they wanted to get married to stay in the seminary, get ordained, and wait just a while until the rules were changed - then get married. It seems that some gay priests were thinking along the same lines. - One older and definitely not gay priest said that part of the problem was the drop in vocations after Vatican II - bishops were so desperate for ordinations that "they were ordaining anyone who finished the course work!" - Some priests did seek professional help to deal with their SSA. At the time, the profession of psychology told bishops that they could "heal" or at least "treat" homosexuals priests through psychotherapy, electroshock therapy, and other methods. Others who might have sought treatment, after hearing the stories of therapies and seeing the lack of success, decided not to pursue it. - Whatever you can say about gay priests in the hierarchy and the seminary, you could say something parallel about pedophiles. But it was all so secretive - the men themselves were secretive about their orientations and actions, and the dioceses were secretive about how they were handling it (or not). But as I said at the beginning, I think the dioceses are making every effort to screen candidates more accurately these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PadrePioOfPietrelcino Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 I can not speak to the problems of the past, but I can tell you from my experiences I have seen ZERO gay subculture. As well while not directly germane to the conversation, I have seen A LOT of good talk and formation on proper sexual understanding and expression from the view point of a celibate life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 The seminarians I sit in class with don't give off a gay vibe to me. I was around a lot of gay guys in the late 80's. My classmates aren't macho either. They are nerdy for want if a better word. I did go to law school with a guy who said he got turned down for seminary because he wasn't gay. No idea if he was telling the truth, but I got the feeling he was or at least truly believed that's why he was turned down. This was early 80's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blazeingstar Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 I went to a Catholic University and our seminarians certainly didn't give off the "gay" vibe and those who joined often had girlfriends before. My state doesn't have a seminary but I know one of the seminarians very well (little brother of one of my best friends) and while some people might accuse him of being gay, he is most certainly not. When I've met his classmates they didn't appear at all to have any orientation towards men. With the FFI's down in NYC, they were definitely men's men (add beef and stir) and I couldn't of told you who they are sexually attracted to because they are SO in love with God. I think alot of these problems are a) either from 30+ years ago or b) full of overstatements and assumptions. I mean, come on, we have a member here who wants to be a priest, claims to be straight, but speaks with a high voice, shaves his body and enjoys pedicures. If we can't judge him, who are we to judge seminairans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhuturePriest Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 I went to a Catholic University and our seminarians certainly didn't give off the "gay" vibe and those who joined often had girlfriends before. My state doesn't have a seminary but I know one of the seminarians very well (little brother of one of my best friends) and while some people might accuse him of being gay, he is most certainly not. When I've met his classmates they didn't appear at all to have any orientation towards men. With the FFI's down in NYC, they were definitely men's men (add beef and stir) and I couldn't of told you who they are sexually attracted to because they are SO in love with God. I think alot of these problems are a) either from 30+ years ago or b) full of overstatements and assumptions. I mean, come on, we have a member here who wants to be a priest, claims to be straight, but speaks with a high voice, shaves his body and enjoys pedicures. If we can't judge him, who are we to judge seminairans. Once again, my leg shaving makes it into another thread. This is the most proud day of my life. And I don't speak with a high voice, FYI. I tried it out and failed. I have more of a baritone speaking voice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilllabettt Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 (edited) I think in most seminaries the gay subculture is a relic of a bygone era. It may still be a problem among the older generations in the hierarchy. Seminary a political process, regardless. "Suitability" (as in, for ordination) is a subjective assessment and its definition has a political dimension. Nowadays seminaries - the diocesan run ones anyway -- are far more likely to doubt the suitability of men whom they suspect have SSA. Edited February 15, 2014 by Lilllabettt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 A friend of a friend was in seminary for a few years and said with the exception of a few guys (himself included) all the seminarians were homosexual. Some were outspoken about their liberal views on homosexual marriage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotreDame Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 A friend of a friend was in seminary for a few years and said with the exception of a few guys (himself included) all the seminarians were homosexual. Some were outspoken about their liberal views on homosexual marriage. Do you know when he was in the seminary? I heard similar stories, but from before Benedict's directions from 2005 (or was it '06?) were implemented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 I don't know how prevalent it used to be but I think there is a strong response now to reject seminary applicants who indicate that they have SSA. I only have anecdotal evidence to support this but a friend of mine applied to seminary and went through the psychological evaluation with flying colors but when it came to his panel interview he admitted to having SSA feelings. He didn't think this would disqualify him because he was chaste/celibate and planned to remain so. Despite having been an ideal applicant in every other way (references, 12 years as altar server, etc), he was rejected. He was devastated and couldn't figure out why but my first thought was - you admitted to potential homosexuality and they got scared. I could be totally wrong about this and am willing to read other opinions, but honestly, my friend had nothing else that could have been considered disqualifying in any way, and at the time he was working as a grounds caretaker for a convent and had great references from the nuns as well as from his diocesan Bishop, pastor etc. Sounds entirely plausible to me. Of course, maybe he was also honest about something like pornography, and for obvious reasons that part of the story is not told to everyone. If his diocesan bishop gave a great reference, he could go that route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfink Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 Sounds entirely plausible to me. Of course, maybe he was also honest about something like pornography, and for obvious reasons that part of the story is not told to everyone. If his diocesan bishop gave a great reference, he could go that route. That doesn't seem at all obvious to me. The seminary should give you a clear reason if they're asking you to go. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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