Dying In Mortal Sin Equals Eternal Hell?

[Basilisa Marie]

No, it's not outside its jurisdiction, it's just that Church leaders are not going to add a massive caveat of "oh but remember God has the final say and only God truly knows a person's heart at the moment of their death!" every single time they say something.  You can say someone is currently outside the Church without saying that they're certainly going to Hell. They're two separate, but related, issues. 

[arfink]

If he receives absolution from the excommunication, then receives sacramental absolution, he could receive communion without committing mortal sin.

 

I'm not sure that without absolution from the excommunication, that the violation of Canon Law would apply to the person. So I don't think that it would cause mortal sin for the person not to receive.

 

I think in an emergency a priest may be able to get permission (before or even perhaps after) to give communion to a person who's been excommunicated but has repented and confessed to the priest.

 

Well, the interesting thing about that is, most forms of excommunication are automatic forms for things like divorce and remarriage and abortion. And in virtually every diocese in the world, the local ordinary is given permission to lift that excommunication, and I believe at least in every diocese in the United States the bishops have agreed to allow this power to their priests in the confessional, usually with some fairly simple caveats. So, that's pretty cool.

[LouisvilleFan]

I never knew that. I was always told that if you committed a mortal sin, even if you repented and were driving the car on the way to confession, unless you had perfect contrition, you had a first class ticket to hell. I never thought that made a whole lot of sense, but they would say "Yes, you repented and are on your way to confession, but it's your fault for committing the sin in the first place, so you're still damned for it." Is this not true? I asked Tim Staples (Lead Apologist at Catholic Answers) in person one year, and he told me as long as you desired to go to confession and would go at the next possible opportunity, if you died, you were forgiven for it. But everyone else I have asked on the internet says differently, and I'm confused on the matter.

 

It's simply a matter of God extending the grace of Confession outside of the sacrament, and we all know this is no problemo for the One who created the sacraments.

[BarbTherese]

God can indeed do ALL things :

 

Hosea Chapter 11

"[8] How shall I deal with thee, O Ephraim, shall I protect thee, O Israel? how shall I make thee as Adama, shall I set thee as Seboim? my heart is turned within me, my repentance is stirred up. [9] I will not execute the fierceness of my wrath: I will not return to destroy Ephraim: because I am God, and not man"

 

Ephraim and Israel had been unfaithful to God.  Adama and Sebolm were destroyed with Sodom and Gomorrah. (Hosea Chapter 12 :"[12] Ephraim hath compassed me about with denials, and the house of Israel with deceit")

 

While God can indeed do all things, we are gifted with the Sacrament of Reconciliation to prove that He can indeed do all things.  Only God can see into the depths of the human heart and Final Judgement (Heaven or Hell) is God's alone.  The Church can certainly outlay for us the conditions for a mortal sin which alone can condemn a person to Hell in the eyes of God, but that Final Judgement is God's alone.  A human being of some kind can state that they think a person is/might be in the state of mortal sin - and with wisdom and prudence should realise their fallibility in the matter.

 

 

 

 

[Didacus]

Catholics don't even say Hitler is in hell. 

 

Nor Judas for that matter.

[Norseman82]

Although technically true "on paper", as others have pointed out, we don't know if the other conditions (full consent and knowledge) necessary to make a sin mortal are present, or whether the person has a last-minute conversion, or whether God shows mercy.  Nevertheless, it can be a useful way of getting people to think twice before committing a serious sin, as anyone who has ever been taught by older nuns can attest. 

[BarbTherese]

A beautiful passage from Hosea.  Background: Ephraim and Israel had been unfaithful to God and He was angry and possibly considering for them the same fate as Sodom and Gomorrah. Admah and Zeboiim were destroyed with Sodom and Gomorrah.

 

Hosea Ch 11 http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PTB.HTM

"8 How could I give you up, O Ephraim, or deliver you up, O Israel? How could I treat you as Admah, or make you like Zeboiim? My heart is overwhelmed, my pity is stirred.

9I will not give vent to my blazing anger, I will not destroy Ephraim again; For I am God and not man, the Holy One present among you; I will not let the flames consume you. "

 

His Judgement and His Mercy are in God's Hands and I don't think He is confined to human rules of any kind "For I am God and not man".

 

https://www.ewtn.com/library/CHRIST/DIVMERCY.TXT
St. Bernard (d.1153) taught that "God is not the Father of
Judgement, but  only the Father of Mercy, and punishment comes
from our own selves."

St. Thomas Aquinas (d. 1274) taught that God's mercy is the chief
motive  of all His external activity.

St. Gertrude the Great (d.1302) was even taught the identical
chaplet to  the Mercy of God as was Sr. Faustina.

St. Catherine of Siena (d.1380) prayed, "Oh, Divine Mercy!. . . On
every  side which I turn my thought I find nothing but mercy."

 

Dom Marmion, O.S.B. the great Benedictine Abbot (d.1923) wrote,
"There  is in God one perfection which is perhaps the key of all
that befalls us  here below: it is mercy. Mercy is love in the
face of misery; if there were  no misery, there would be no mercy.
. . we shall be in Heaven the living  witnesses of the Divine
Mercy."

 

_______________

But I do agree with Norseman82, if one was taught by nuns especially pre V2, one would in all likelihood shake and tremble much before even considering an act that might be seriously sinful. I thank God for my pre V2 education by nuns as much grief as it brought me, it taught me from an early age self discipline  :)

 

Edited February 17, 2014 by BarbaraTherese

[Norseman82]

[media] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54cR-FRN1rI [/media]

[Eliakim]

No, it's not outside its jurisdiction, it's just that Church leaders are not going to add a massive caveat of "oh but remember God has the final say and only God truly knows a person's heart at the moment of their death!" every single time they say something.  You can say someone is currently outside the Church without saying that they're certainly going to Hell. They're two separate, but related, issues. 

 

Please show me 2 or 3 solid Early Church Fathers or of medieval period that showed the thought process that those outside the Church are not necessarily going to hell. 

 

Although technically true "on paper", as others have pointed out, we don't know if the other conditions (full consent and knowledge) necessary to make a sin mortal are present, or whether the person has a last-minute conversion, or whether God shows mercy.  Nevertheless, it can be a useful way of getting people to think twice before committing a serious sin, as anyone who has ever been taught by older nuns can attest. 

 

So it's "useful" to scare people when it is not fully explained. 

[PhuturePriest]

Please show me 2 or 3 solid Early Church Fathers or of medieval period that showed the thought process that those outside the Church are not necessarily going to hell. 

 

 

So it's "useful" to scare people when it is not fully explained. 

 

Saint Thomas Aquinas believed that the soul enters the body 40 days after conception. Obviously, he was wrong. It wasn't his fault; he just said what he had been taught and led to believe. Many early Church Fathers believed in heresies, because the heresies were not yet established as heresies yet and they didn't know any better. Obviously, a Church Father or Doctor of the Church saying something doesn't automatically make it theologically correct.

[Eliakim]

Saint Thomas Aquinas believed that the soul enters the body 40 days after conception. Obviously, he was wrong. It wasn't his fault; he just said what he had been taught and led to believe. Many early Church Fathers believed in heresies, because the heresies were not yet established as heresies yet and they didn't know any better. Obviously, a Church Father or Doctor of the Church saying something doesn't automatically make it theologically correct.

 

But there does need to be some historical continuity of the truth especially for such an important question of whether or not those deemed outside the Church still have the Holy Spirit and may not be damned.