Dying In Mortal Sin Equals Eternal Hell?

[Nihil Obstat]

Smells phishy to me.

[KnightofChrist]

I submit Ludwig Ott's "Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma" for consideration:

 

p. 475:

"Immediately after death the particular judgment takes place, in which by a Divine Sentence of Judgment, the eternal fate of the deceased person is decided." 

 

This statement of faith was labeled "Sent. Fidei Proxima", a theological ranking on a dogmatic scale.  It means it is almost a statement of faith but not quite. 

 

Relatedly the Church can infallibly define moral issues, but not the penalties attached to denying Church teachings. 

 

Church penalties such as excommunication are lifted at death. But one cannot hope to be saved if he dies while denying an article of Faith, which is a mortal sin. He who dies with unconfessed unrepented mortal sins cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven, which nothing unclean can enter. Christ will look at them and say "I know you not, away from me..." This is the teaching of the Church, because this is what Christ taught and revealed to her.

[CatherineM]

Here's a question we talked about in class. Let's say you've been excommunicated but repented. While excommunicated you can't receive communion. Not receiving is also a violation of canon law. So can a temporal punishment cause you to be in mortal sin at death?

[PhuturePriest]

No. Not unconfessed.  Unrepentant. There's a big difference. You can be repentant without having gone to confession. 

 

I never knew that. I was always told that if you committed a mortal sin, even if you repented and were driving the car on the way to confession, unless you had perfect contrition, you had a first class ticket to hell. I never thought that made a whole lot of sense, but they would say "Yes, you repented and are on your way to confession, but it's your fault for committing the sin in the first place, so you're still damned for it." Is this not true? I asked Tim Staples (Lead Apologist at Catholic Answers) in person one year, and he told me as long as you desired to go to confession and would go at the next possible opportunity, if you died, you were forgiven for it. But everyone else I have asked on the internet says differently, and I'm confused on the matter.

Edited February 14, 2014 by FuturePriest387

[KnightofChrist]

I never knew that. I was always told that if you committed a mortal sin, even if you repented and were driving the car on the way to confession, unless you had perfect contrition, you had a first class ticket to hell. I never thought that made a whole lot of sense, but they would say "Yes, you repented and are on your way to confession, but it's your fault for committing the sin in the first place, so you're still damned for it." Is this not true? I asked Tim Staples (Lead Apologist at Catholic Answers) in person one year, and he told me as long as you desired to go to confession and would go at the next possible opportunity, if you died, you were forgiven for it. But everyone else I have asked on the internet says differently, and I'm confused on the matter.

 

Mr. Staples is correct, if one repents and does indeed desire to go to confession, but dies before doing so his sins are forgiven. It's along the same thought of desiring to be baptized, but before one can he dies he is still receives baptism by that desire.  Of course for both examples should the person live and then not fulfill that desire the repentance is made void.

Edited February 14, 2014 by KnightofChrist

[KnightofChrist]

Here's a question we talked about in class. Let's say you've been excommunicated but repented. While excommunicated you can't receive communion. Not receiving is also a violation of canon law. So can a temporal punishment cause you to be in mortal sin at death?

 

If he receives absolution from the excommunication, then receives sacramental absolution, he could receive communion without committing mortal sin.

 

I'm not sure that without absolution from the excommunication, that the violation of Canon Law would apply to the person. So I don't think that it would cause mortal sin for the person not to receive.

 

I think in an emergency a priest may be able to get permission (before or even perhaps after) to give communion to a person who's been excommunicated but has repented and confessed to the priest.

[Basilisa Marie]

I never knew that. I was always told that if you committed a mortal sin, even if you repented and were driving the car on the way to confession, unless you had perfect contrition, you had a first class ticket to hell. I never thought that made a whole lot of sense, but they would say "Yes, you repented and are on your way to confession, but it's your fault for committing the sin in the first place, so you're still damned for it." Is this not true? I asked Tim Staples (Lead Apologist at Catholic Answers) in person one year, and he told me as long as you desired to go to confession and would go at the next possible opportunity, if you died, you were forgiven for it. But everyone else I have asked on the internet says differently, and I'm confused on the matter.

 

Yeah, that's because repentance is the thing that makes it all work from our end. I mean, you go through the motions of Confession, but you aren't repentant even in the tiniest, slightest bit? I don't think that counts. 

Now, I think it'd be reasonable to guess that the person who repents of a mortal sin and doesn't make it to confession probably spends more "time" in purgatory, but ultimately sacraments are for our benefit, and God can do what he wants. :)  But the sacraments are so important because (among many other reasons) they're sure sources of sacramental, sanctifying grace. It's like using directions to get to a new location vs wandering around and hoping that you come upon it. 

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

My grandpa died without confessing, they where looking for a priest though but could not find one. The day after he died the holy priest whom came to do whatever the priests do over the dead body ( and he was fssp by the way and the whole family was there whom are all lapsed catholics and it was beautiful, we all got pray the lords prayer together), well anyway after the whatevers over his body the holy priest said to me that it was ok and that god knew he tried. And i got signs that he went to heaven the following days before his burial.

[maximillion]

Like many other things, intention is the key here.

 

If I died in mortal sin, unconfessed BUT had the intention of obtaining a pure heart by confession at the earliest opportunity, then I am forgiven.

 

If I die unrepentant then I am dammed.

 

I was taught this from my earliest days in school and as far as I am aware nothing has changed in the intervening time.

 

The cases where one may have sinned and not be aware of it are as far as I know limited to certain cases where medical conditions obtain. If I am conscious in the usual sense of the meaning of that word and I commit mortal sin, I am guilty.

 

I would need to be in some altered state where I was not aware of my own actions in order to do something horrendous and not be guilty.  

I am not stating any teaching or dogma here, just my own understanding.

[Eliakim]

 

 

If I die unrepentant then I am dammed.

 

 

 

Can we be so sure?  Is it a *dogma* one is eternally damned? 

[KnightofChrist]

It is a truth taught to the Church by Christ.

"The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, ‘eternal fire.’ The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs" - CCC 1035

[Lilllabettt]

It is true that if a person does not repent of sin they have freely, fully chosen, they are damned.

The point is that only God knows:

1. who has freely and fully chosen mortal sin and 2. of these, who among them is or is not repentant at the moment of death.

The choice to know, love and serve God is an ongoing one. We don't choose God once and then become his robots. It would be horrible to live a life loving God and then turn against Him in the last moment - but the freedom of that choice is always in our power. That's why we pray for perseverance.

[Eliakim]

ok, this is what the Church officially teaches, but it does not have the authority to make this dogma, and frankly even this teaching itself cited by the CCC may very well be outside the Church's authority to bind and loose and power of the keys as I explained in my other post "The Church does not have the authority to d a m n." 

 

The Church used to teach usery was a mortal sin too (I am aware of the labrynth arguments some Catholics who deny this will stretch to employ, but it's true the Church can correct non-infallible teachings). 

 

Could it be that the Church is just acting very cautiously by teaching those who die in mortal sin are damned for all eternity?  One really couldn't blame the Church for doing this since Christ uses language that seem to support this notion (though not explicitly). 

True there won't be liars and sexually immoral in the Kingdom, but how this occurs is not revealed to us. 

 

E

[Lilllabettt]

Well, this is a teaching of the ancient Church. The orthodox don't have the legal distinction between mortal and venial sins. They have the same concept though -  intentional, deliberate sin is symptomatic of a separation from the Church, that separation being synonymous with loss of salvation.

[Eliakim]

Well, this is a teaching of the ancient Church. The orthodox don't have the legal distinction between mortal and venial sins. They have the same concept though -  intentional, deliberate sin is symptomatic of a separation from the Church, that separation being synonymous with loss of salvation.

 

Again the decision to state someone is "outside the Church" is never infallible.  And every time the hierarchy did this it ipso facto went outside its own jurisdiction. 

 

At most the Church can declare it believes someone to be outside the Church but never infallibly that anyone truly is. 

 

It can declare things to be sins and then retract/loose ordinances (binding and loosing) but not inflict penalty beyond temporal punishments.  This eternal penalty belongs to Christ alone. 

 

E