The Church Does Not Have The Authority To beaver dam

[KnightofChrist]

Not so even by official Church teaching.

How so, provide the official Church teaching that says there are two Churches, one visible and one invisible.

Do you not think it is possible for men of the hierarchy to mistakenly declare someone to be outside the Church?  Think about what you are saying.

Yes, it's happened before, Joan of Arc is one such example. But that does not mean there are two Churches one visible and the other invisible. There is only one Church, one Body.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

The magesterium of the holy catholic church has the authority to hand out temporal punishment in the hope of eternal salvation, but not to hand out eternal punishment because that is up to God.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[Eliakim]

How so, provide the official Church teaching that says there are two Churches, one visible and one invisible.
 

 

Read Lumen Gentium on the Church.  The Church is more mysterious and broad than you seem to think. 

 

The magesterium of the holy catholic church has the authority to hand out temporal punishment in the hope of eternal salvation, but not to hand out eternal punishment because that is up to God.

 

Yes!  Finally someone thinking! 

Now can we point to a Church teaching that backs this up?  Then we'll be all set with this question-

 

E

[Oremoose]

Read Lumen Gentium on the Church.  The Church is more mysterious and broad than you seem to think. 

 

Yet the Creed clearly States ONE, Holy....Etc. therefore there is one Church, the Church is one how ever you want to shake it. So I doubt Lumen Gentium would say anything to oppose the Creed.

 

But to be more on topic with the thread. As I said before I really think you are looking too deeply into this. The Church has the authority to point out what is a sin and what is not. Living a life of sin, unrepented, is what condemns people to hell.

 

So I would say logically If the Church can pronounce something as a sin, can further say that anyone that does that said sin is condemned. unless they repent and attempt to no longer sin.

 

 

 

Lastly on a side note has there been any modern time example of this type of declaration? Or are we looking at situations from eras that were more uptight and serious?

[BarbTherese]

Matthew 16:19

[16] Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. [17] And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. [18] And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.      And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

 

[Eliakim]

Yet the Creed clearly States ONE, Holy....Etc. therefore there is one Church, the Church is one how ever you want to shake it. So I doubt Lumen Gentium would say anything to oppose the Creed.

 

Answer: One may include a visible and invisible component, just as One Person of Jesus includes two wills.  Again it is mysterious and I encourage anyone interested to read LG. 

 

But to be more on topic with the thread. As I said before I really think you are looking too deeply into this. The Church has the authority to point out what is a sin and what is not. Living a life of sin, unrepented, is what condemns people to hell.

 

Answer: The question is do they go to eternal hell though?  Yes they sin and are responsible for their sins, but if Christ gave Peter the authority to decide what happens to sinners when they die, then it would be the Church actually carrying out the condemnation.  But as I said before and no one challenged my assertion, such power was not intended in the handover of the Keys and binding and loosing. 

 

So I would say logically If the Church can pronounce something as a sin, can further say that anyone that does that said sin is condemned. unless they repent and attempt to no longer sin.

 

Answer: One does not logically follow the other.  Yes the Church can pronounce something a sin, but that's as far as its power may go is my assertion.  The power to bind and loose: to affirm what is ok and not ok such as fasting prior to Mass from midnight or an hour before.  But I am proposing it does not follow that the Church can further say that anyone who does not obey is d a m n e d.    This is a different category and question and I suggest is outside the Church's authority to bind and loose as well as the Keys.  As another poster insightfully recognized, Tab' Le De' Bah-Rye, that is only for Jesus to decide. 

 

Lastly on a side note has there been any modern time example of this type of declaration? Or are we looking at situations from eras that were more uptight and serious?

 

Answer: Yes, even modern things such as skipping mass (yes yes with the proper requirements: intentionally with full knowledge), married couples using contraception, eating a half hour before Mass and similar things that a would raise a reasonable person's eyebrow when you tell them some hierarchy believe these acts of disobedience are damnable.  However again I am proposing it might be the case that official Church teaching states these are all grave acts and even mortal sins if done with the proper requirements, but what happens to someone who dies in that state is outside the Church's official teaching capacity and must be left to Christ alone. 

 

E

 

 

Matthew 16:19

[16] Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. [17] And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. [18] And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.      And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

 

Barbara, Mathew does not stop there.  Read to the end of the book: "And Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to Me."  Mathew 28:18. 

 

And at the end of the Bible, Christ Himself is revealed to have the keys: "The holy One, the True, Who holds the key of David, Who opens and no one shall close, Who closes and no one shall open..."  Revelation 3:7.

[reyb]

So, you are saying now that  the Roman Catholic Church is not ‘The Holy Church’? Because you said ....

 

Not so even by official Church teaching.  Do you not think it is possible for men of the hierarchy to mistakenly declare someone to be outside the Church?  Think about what you are saying.   

 

Just as marriage annulment tribunals can err in declaring an annulment or a priest can err in being too lenient with confession, so too can the Church err in saying people are damned if they commit mortal sin.

 

At most, the Church can only *believe* one is damned but this is does not carry the same weight or endorsement as the power of the keys and of binding and loosing.  These latter are real power that effect real results that Christ ratifies unless He vetoes a corrupt particular judgment I believe. 

 

Edited February 15, 2014 by reyb

[CatholicCid]

Dogma, and yes they must be believed. 

Ok. What happens if you refuse to believe in and actually reject dogma (which must be believed)?

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Read Lumen Gentium on the Church.  The Church is more mysterious and broad than you seem to think. 

 

 

Yes!  Finally someone thinking! 

Now can we point to a Church teaching that backs this up?  Then we'll be all set with this question-

 

E

 

 

Sorry the only document i have is faith, in that the magesterium of the catholic church and primacy of the pope is an infallible matter of faith and morals therefore we have to believe in both of these to claim to be a fully fledged member of the holy roman catholic church in spirit and flesh and not just one or the other, something like that anyway. And if the head says to the hand to move left it must or the hand is separate from the body, and if the head says hand move right than it must or the hand is separate from the body. The hand can not say to head " head i need you not, i am my own hand, i need not a head " that would be a silly thing for the hand to say because the hand can not work properly without the head,if at all, which is more likely to have itself cut off from the rest of the body in case the whole body rebel against the head. Something like that anyway. But also if the head is sick than the whole body is not going to function properly, like parkinsons disease. The question always will be when the body is sick is as to whether it is the body rebelling against the head or whether it is the head that is sick. :)  Hope something in all of that helps.

 

Jesus " If your right hand causes you to sin than cut it off."

 

St Paul " God can cut a branch off, but also can re-attach it at anytime."

Edited February 16, 2014 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[reyb]

St Paul " God can cut a branch off, but also can re-attach it at anytime."

 

Can you please show us, where is that verse in the scripture?   

[BarbTherese]

John Ch 15 "[5] I am the vine: you the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing.      If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and cast him into the fire, and he burneth."

 

The Sacrament of Reconciliation, Gift of God's Mercy, reconciles the person in mortal sin (and thus condemned to hell/burning by the sin) to both God and His Church.  John Ch20 "[21] He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. [22] When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. [23] Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained."

Edited February 17, 2014 by BarbaraTherese

[Fidei Defensor]

I would venture to say that unless the "Holy Church" wants to place itself on the same level as its God, it really doesn't have a much authority in comparison. 

 

The Church theoretically gets its authority from what God has decreed. That being said, the Church itself is not the authority, the authority is God through the Church.

[Eliakim]

Ok. What happens if you refuse to believe in and actually reject dogma (which must be believed)?

 

You are going against God, and He may punish you.  He decides what your eternal punishment will be (if any), not a group of men.  The RC Church does have temporal authority (so long as it is in line with God's will) but not eternal.  Therefore when the RC Church thundered ex-communications and stated so and so is "out of the Church" they erred by going beyond their jurisdiction. 

 

I would venture to say that unless the "Holy Church" wants to place itself on the same level as its God, it really doesn't have a much authority in comparison. 

 

The Church theoretically gets its authority from what God has decreed. That being said, the Church itself is not the authority, the authority is God through the Church.

 

See above. 

 

E