I Cringe When I Hear The Term "living Wage."

[Slappo]

There are some services that are not profitable in and of themselves that businesses might pick back up if they could do it for personnel cost. Things such as bag boys that actually carry your groceries to the car for you when shopping. Gas pumps where while you're pulled over they will check your tire pressure and oil for you, or at least run a squeegee across the window (Some states require employees to pump gas for you, but states that allow self-service have pretty much lost all service).

[Slappo]

You are both making the assumption that the only way to trade your goods or services for money is to do it through an employer who also gets to take a cut. That's what I'm trying to talk about here: the mat-weaver can do an end-run around employers who can't make a good enough margin post-minimum-wage and just sell their own mats.

 

I'm suggesting that perhaps the way to think about this is that by paying minimum wage, an employer receives a benefit, mainly, the ability to have someone else do the work for him under conditions which he dictates to the employee.

 

So you are perfectly fine with someone making less than minimum wage and paying self-employment taxes, doing more work as they have to market their own product, assuming they can build a market with zero infrastructure, but you have a problem with the idea of jobs that pay below minimum wage for the reason that the employer is making a profit?

[arfink]

So you are perfectly fine with someone making less than minimum wage and paying self-employment taxes, doing more work as they have to market their own product, assuming they can build a market with zero infrastructure, but you have a problem with the idea of jobs that pay below minimum wage for the reason that the employer is making a profit?

 

I'm not saying I have a problem with it, I'm saying that rather than complain about minimum wage, people could simply adapt and work around it. Both the people who want to work but can't seem to get employed, but also employers who want to get other people to do work for them without paying minimum wage.

 

Let's take our hypothetical of mat-making though. Building a market in today's environment would be pretty easy. Make some videos of your process and product with lots of hipster-cred, maybe get on Kickstarter, use the internet. You don't need a specific infrastructure for marketing or selling when you have the Internet.

 

Of course, the whole argument that minimum wage is making society less productive is a little bit silly if you ask me. It's making society less productive for the employers who wish they could get cheaper labor, but that doesn't mean that everyone will be idle unless they have been given a buck. Huge volunteer efforts like Wikipedia continue to flourish with labor which is entirely volunteered. At the same time, there will always be people who wish to be idle even if they are being offered money.

[Slappo]

I'm not saying I have a problem with it, I'm saying that rather than complain about minimum wage, people could simply adapt and work around it. Both the people who want to work but can't seem to get employed, but also employers who want to get other people to do work for them without paying minimum wage.

 

Let's take our hypothetical of mat-making though. Building a market in today's environment would be pretty easy. Make some videos of your process and product with lots of hipster-cred, maybe get on Kickstarter, use the internet. You don't need a specific infrastructure for marketing or selling when you have the Internet.

 

Of course, the whole argument that minimum wage is making society less productive is a little bit silly if you ask me. It's making society less productive for the employers who wish they could get cheaper labor, but that doesn't mean that everyone will be idle unless they have been given a buck. Huge volunteer efforts like Wikipedia continue to flourish with labor which is entirely volunteered. At the same time, there will always be people who wish to be idle even if they are being offered money.

The problem is... this person is not internet savvy, not market savvy, not computer savvy. S/he might not know what kickstarter is. This is someone who can't get employed working minimum wage, and the solution you offer is to build your own market to make and sell your own product?

 

If you can build your own product, market it, sell it, and handle all the administrative croutons that comes along with running your own business, then you're not someone who can't land a job as a Wal-mart cashier because of incompetence.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Slappo

[arfink]

The problem is... this person is not internet savvy, not market savvy, not computer savvy. S/he might not know what kickstarter is. This is someone who can't get employed working minimum wage, and the solution you offer is to build your own market to make and sell your own product?

 

If you can build your own product, market it, sell it, and handle all the administrative croutons that comes along with running your own business, then you're not someone who can't land a job as a Wal-mart cashier because of incompetence.

 

OK, so thank you for narrowing the topic down a bit, this helps. :)

 

Next question: Do people utterly devoid of imagination, will-power, or competence of any sort need to work? Why must society demand profit of them in order to justify their existence?

[Slappo]

OK, so thank you for narrowing the topic down a bit, this helps. :)

 

Next question: Do people utterly devoid of imagination, will-power, or competence of any sort need to work? Why must society demand profit of them in order to justify their existence?

:pinch:

 

The entire topic is about a living wage, the particular tangent we were on is about a minimum wage (which really isn't even a tanget). If we're talking about people who can't get a job at $7.25, but would be able to do something worth say $5 an hour to an employer, then I don't see where your confusion came in.

[Slappo]

Next question: Do people utterly devoid of imagination, will-power, or competence of any sort need to work? Why must society demand profit of them in order to justify their existence?

Obviously society does't which is why we have numerous programs and social services offered to those who are not employable. Unfortunately a lot of employable people take advantage of those programs as well.

 

If those people WERE employable though, then why not let them do what little they can to make something rather than nothing? Such as somoene to carry the grocieries to the car or to wipe your window when you get gas. It's a very little thing that we can live without, but it also adds dignity to the person because they feel like they can help others.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Slappo

[arfink]

Obviously society does't which is why we have numerous programs and social services offered to those who are not employable. Unfortunately a lot of employable people take advantage of those programs as well.

 

If those people WERE employable though, then why not let them do what little they can to make something rather than nothing? Such as somoene to carry the grocieries to the car or to wipe your window when you get gas. It's a very little thing that we can live without, but it also adds dignity to the person because they feel like they can help others.

 

Yes, but why must pecuniary exchange be used as the sole device for enabling this?

[Pliny]

It would be nice if those who can exchange something for what they receive do so.  It would not only be nice, it would be just.  And it would be good for them.

 

Employers should be able to hire labor for whatever price they can and whatever the employee agrees to.  That's called freedom.  

 

Employee wages without a minimum wage law will be based on supply and demand just as are all other prices where the government is not intruding and mucking things up.

 

Sure I could be greedy and envision hiring a huge labor force at $1.00 per hour, but how many laborers do you think will work for me for that wage?  Other employers will bid up the price until an equilibrium is reached, which will be much fairer and efficient than whatever overpaid bureaucrats in government come up with, and NOBODY who can work will be out of some kind of job.  And that job does not need to be permanent.  After acquiring skills, the low-paid employee can apply for a higher-skilled and higher-paying job.

 

It's sad to think of all the inner city youth having an enormous unemployment rate because of do-gooders who say it's unfair and wrong for them to work for something they are actually worth.   Idle hands and minds are the devil's workshop, so many end up wasting their time or using it in immoral pursuits or criminal activities.  Remove the minimum wage ant they will have constructive things to do.  There will be less crime.  And we will all have more goods and services at our disposal.

[Pliny]

deleted--wrong thread

Edited February 11, 2014 by Pliny

[arfink]

It would be nice if those who can exchange something for what they receive do so.  It would not only be nice, it would be just.  And it would be good for them.

 

Employers should be able to hire labor for whatever price they can and whatever the employee agrees to.  That's called freedom.  

 

Employee wages without a minimum wage law will be based on supply and demand just as are all other prices where the government is not intruding and mucking things up.

 

Sure I could be greedy and envision hiring a huge labor force at $1.00 per hour, but how many laborers do you think will work for me for that wage?  Other employers will bid up the price until an equilibrium is reached, which will be much fairer and efficient than whatever overpaid bureaucrats in government come up with, and NOBODY who can work will be out of some kind of job.  And that job does not need to be permanent.  After acquiring skills, the low-paid employee can apply for a higher-skilled and higher-paying job.

 

It's sad to think of all the inner city youth having an enormous unemployment rate because of do-gooders who say it's unfair and wrong for them to work for something they are actually worth.   Idle hands and minds are the devil's workshop, so many end up wasting their time or using it in immoral pursuits or criminal activities.  Remove the minimum wage ant they will have constructive things to do.  There will be less crime.  And we will all have more goods and services at our disposal.

 

Except that this has never happened in the history of capitalism, even in the unregulated days of the robber barons. Your falsely assume that workers who need more money will actually be able to move on or that employers will value people's skills high enough for them to buy the food and housing that they need.

 

This kind of system favors only the employer, as they would then hold in their hands a monopoly of control and power which could never touch that which the state now fancies itself capable of. The can fix the prices of labor, goods, and services while simultaneously controlling the supply of said goods and services and will essentially be unaccountable to anyone.
 

[4588686]

It would be nice if those who can exchange something for what they receive do so.  It would not only be nice, it would be just.  And it would be good for them.

 

Employers should be able to hire labor for whatever price they can and whatever the employee agrees to.  That's called freedom.  

 

Employee wages without a minimum wage law will be based on supply and demand just as are all other prices where the government is not intruding and mucking things up.

 

Sure I could be greedy and envision hiring a huge labor force at $1.00 per hour, but how many laborers do you think will work for me for that wage?  Other employers will bid up the price until an equilibrium is reached, which will be much fairer and efficient than whatever overpaid bureaucrats in government come up with, and NOBODY who can work will be out of some kind of job.  And that job does not need to be permanent.  After acquiring skills, the low-paid employee can apply for a higher-skilled and higher-paying job.

 

It's sad to think of all the inner city youth having an enormous unemployment rate because of do-gooders who say it's unfair and wrong for them to work for something they are actually worth.   Idle hands and minds are the devil's workshop, so many end up wasting their time or using it in immoral pursuits or criminal activities.  Remove the minimum wage ant they will have constructive things to do.  There will be less crime.  And we will all have more goods and services at our disposal.

 

Right.  Well right now you understand that there are more people in this country looking for work than there are current job openings?

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/09/unemployed-job-opening_n_3568646.html

[Pliny]

This kind of system favors only the employer, as they would then hold in their hands a monopoly of control and power which could never touch that which the state now fancies itself capable of. The can fix the prices of labor, goods, and services while simultaneously controlling the supply of said goods and services and will essentially be unaccountable to anyone.

 

 

That's baloney as there is not "one" employer and there will always be those who will offer to pay more and break up any collusion.

 

Why don't we have one hamburger franchise selling hamburgers for $20?

 

And why haven't all the employers gotten together and conspired to keep everyone at $10 per hour or less?  There are plenty of people earning wages much higher than minimum wage without any coercion from Big Brother.

 

[Pliny]

Right.  Well right now you understand that there are more people in this country looking for work than there are current job openings?

 

 

In a free market, which we don't have, just some relative freedom, there will always be some place for the unemployed to go.  Many of them can now, but will not accept jobs "beneath" them and have a government disincentive from doing so in the form of many weeks of unemployment benefits.

[4588686]

In a free market, which we don't have, just some relative freedom, there will always be some place for the unemployed to go.  Many of them can now, but will not accept jobs "beneath" them and have a government disincentive from doing so in the form of many weeks of unemployment benefits.

 

 

What does it mean for a market to be free?