Would You Correct A Friend Who Is Doing Something Wrong At Mass?

[Pliny]

The way I've decided to handle this issue with my friend is to tell her that I noticed that she made a change and that I'm curious why she did.  I might then ask her, depending upon her response, if she thinks it's wrong that I and the others stand.  And we'll see where the conversation goes from there.

 

I hope to have this conversation today after Mass.

[Pliny]

What do these terms mean?

 

dubia 

mens

[KnightofChrist]

This has probably already been posted, but here it is anyway, and Aloysis is very correct btw, and Mr. Akin if he is calling someone a sinner for not obeying a bishop in this matter, he is wrong.

 

Dubium: In many places, the faithful are accustomed to kneeling or sitting in personal prayer upon returning to their places after individually received Holy Communion during Mass. Is it the intention of the Missale Romanum, editio typica tertia, to forbid this practice?

Responsum: Negative, et ad mentem. The mens is that that the prescription of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, no. 43, is intended, on one hand, to ensure within broad limits a certain uniformity of posture within the congregation for the various parts of the celebration of the Holy Mass, and on the other, to not regulate posture rigidly in such a way that those who wish to kneel or sit would no longer be free.

Francis Cardinal Arinze
Prefect

http://www.ewtn.com/...RIA/CDWCLAR.HTM
http://www.adoremus.org/0703Kneel.html

 

--

 

"There is no rule from Rome that everybody must stand during Holy Communion. There is no such rule from Rome. So, after people have received Communion, they can stand, they can kneel, they can sit. But a bishop in his diocese or bishops in a country could say that they recommend standing or kneeling. They could. It is not a law from Rome. They could -- but not impose it. Perhaps they could propose. But those who want to sit or kneel or stand should be left reasonable freedom." - Francis Cardinal Arinze

 

http://www.adoremus....1003Arinze.html

--

 

GIRM 43
"They should, however, sit while the readings before the Gospel and the responsorial Psalm are proclaimed and for the homily and while the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory is taking place; and, as circumstances allow, they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed."

 

 

Edited January 23, 2014 by KnightofChrist

[Aloysius]

Despite being a response about a different moment, it is relevant. Note than in responding to that specific issue the CDW offers a broad principle for interpretting all norms of GIRM no. 43. regarding the postures of the laity. it would now be up to you to show that rome contradicts that principle here and suddenly considers these local diocesan norms as binding.

Akin is wrong and fr z seems to disagree with him, but also in other places he has referred to ppl as "posture nazis " when they get bent out of shape about such things so i'm not sure he'd agree that you need to correct your friend.

[Aloysius]

Dubia is an official questio to a congregation in rome. Mens is the "reason " or the "mind " or the "sense " of the church... basically it is saying "this is the guiding principle that led us to this interpretation. This is how the church thinks about this kind of issue.

[Lil Red]

Like I said, it falls to the pastor - the one who is immediately responsible for the Sacred Liturgy in his parish - to correct them. No one else. 

 

agreed. and who knows, he might've already spoken with them. 

[Lil Red]

There is merit in agreeing to the Bishop's request. There is no demerit in people exercising their right to kneel.  No bishop can "command" people to stand. They request it.

 

nicely said. ;) 

[Lil Red]

-With that said...I think the key here is speaking with her about her choice. I think you identified the  key components of asking why she has chosen to kneel. You said she was active in the Church, so it's possible that these ladies who addressed how you receive communion may have spoken to her about this issue and she thinks she is doing what is right. She may be ignorant of the Bishop's request and being made aware of it deem it proper to obey. There are a number of reasons why she may choose to do it. I would be cautious of seeming judgmental and harsh, which of course a lot of that will depend on the strength od your relationship. In my humble opinion (and therefore correct :) )I say proceed with charity.

 

yup. 

[Lil Red]

 

I'd like to go back to the previous responsum ad dubium that was cited, because while it is true that the answer was in the context of the question of whether one can kneel after communion, the response said something much more broad and applied it to the norms of GIRM no. 43.

 

 

 

 

 

GIRM no. 43 lists the general guidelines for the postures of the laity throughout the mass.  This response applies to ALL of the norms stated in this section.  Broad limits of a certain uniformity in posture, but not a rigid regulation of the laity's posture.  full stop.  that applies to every posture of the laity being listed here.  moreover, Rome consistently shows indulgence and deference in EVERY instance when people are kneeling against their local norms at a time when it was once traditional to do so... up to the point where in 2010 the document that used to say people shouldn't be denied communion for kneeling but should be educated about the reasons they should stand was revised to no longer state anything of the kind, it now says “The norm established for the Dioceses of the United States of America is that Holy Communion is to be received standing, unless an individual member of the faithful wishes to receive Communion while kneeling.”

Rome is not a fan of anyone trying to prohibit kneeling at times it was traditional, it allows for other norms to be established but continually treats the former kneeling options as acceptable.  standing when you should be sitting or kneeling would not get such deference from Rome and would be frowned upon simply for a lack of manners if nothing else, but kneeling at ANY time during the Mass is not in any way prohibited... it's just not the norm, you're requested to follow along with the broad limits so that there is, generally, a certain uniformity of posture.

 

until and unless you can demonstrate that Rome has indicated the opposite of this principle, which it gave as its mens by applying that principle to a particular case but clearly indicating it applies to ALL of no.43, that somehow the principle of broad limits without rigid regulation they described is somehow LIMITED in scope to ONLY the time after communion, then you are certainly not in any position to try to "correct" anyone on the matter as a layman.  If someone was doing something that was demonstrably wrong, you would be in a position to offer correction, but as it stands right now it's demonstrably the mind of the CDW that there is not meant to be an absolute rigidity in the guidelines for the postures of the laity.  which, if you read that statement from the CDW and then go back and re-read no. 43 where it softly says what people "should" do, makes total and complete sense.  the postures of the laity are not legislated with any degree of force, there are merely some broad limits and guidelines for them.

 

 

I agree with whatever Aloysius says (as usual).

[Pliny]

This has probably already been posted, but here it is anyway, and Aloysis is very correct btw, and Mr. Akin if he is calling someone a sinner for not obeying a bishop in this matter, he is wrong.

He said he himself would be sinning if he disobeyed the bishop in this area where he has authority. So I suppose it follows that so would you and I if we rebel against legitimate authority. He is wrong because you say so? Can you give me a better reason to trust an anonymous internet poster over a published apologist and radio personality for Catholic Answers? He's solid.

But your quotes were irrelevant and pertained to postures after receiving communion. That is not the topic. Edited January 23, 2014 by Pliny

[beatitude]

At first I sincerely thought that Pliny was trolling and trying to satirise the liturgy police. Pliny, if you are serious, this is not a good use of your time at Mass. You have no way to know why people are kneeling in Mass - you are assuming that they are 'flaunting their humility', but you can't possibly know their motivations and by speculating about them and making these uncharitable assumptions, you put yourself in the wrong. I don't think it's good preparation for Mass to get all worked up about the fact that some people are praying kneeling and your supposed responsibility to 'correct' them.

[Pliny]

At first I sincerely thought that Pliny was trolling and trying to satirise the liturgy police. Pliny, if you are serious, this is not a good use of your time at Mass. You have no way to know why people are kneeling in Mass - you are assuming that they are 'flaunting their humility', but you can't possibly know their motivations and by speculating about them and making these uncharitable assumptions, you put yourself in the wrong. I don't think it's good preparation for Mass to get all worked up about the fact that some people are praying kneeling and your supposed responsibility to 'correct' them.

You don't know how I spend my time at Mass. It only takes a few seconds to notice these things.

So would you say I am forbidden by the church to say anything about this? Would it be a sin?

I didn't have the opportunity to talk to my friend today, but I did make a change of my own, which is to sit in the front and not be distracted by their disunity.

[Basilisa Marie]

Pliny, if this person is actually your friend, then you might open a conversation with them by asking them why they kneel and if they know that the bishop decided the norm in your diocese is standing. A conversation, not a confrontation. Ultimately, other than a conversation where you explain why the bishop decided to making standing the norm (maybe talk about the liturgical meaning of the posture) and the merits of unity/obedience, I don't think there's anything you can do.  While I'm not sure it's necessarily a sin to be confrontational or accusatory about it, I think it might be an imperfection, if that makes any sense. 

[Slappo]

You don't know how I spend my time at Mass. It only takes a few seconds to notice these things.

The problem isn't that you notice it, but that you judge it as someone "flaunting their humility". That's pretty judgmental of them.

[PhuturePriest]

I'm filled with agreements and disagreements throughout this thread.

 

Being a "posture Nazi" is bad. Is it a sin to not obey the Bishop in this regard? I would say probably not. If during the Consecration your friend does the ancient Maori battle dance, I would definitely say something. You are within bounds as friends to ask conversationally why she doesn't stand, and get into the fact that the Bishop requested that everyone stand if it becomes necessary to do so. If she decides to keep kneeling, though, remember that there are far worse things she could be doing (Like the Maori dance) and go on.

 

However, some are saying you have no right to correct people on anything because you're a laymen. This is incorrect. Two of the spiritual works of mercy are instructing the ignorant and admonishing the sinner. This is regardless if you are ordained or not, and it is your duty as a Catholic to evangelize and teach people. Servant of God Father John Hardon said "Any Catholic who is not about the business of evangelization might never entertain a serious hope for the Beatific Vision." For those who say only priests should be doing these things, you are not only going against what countless Saints and Popes say (Not to mention Jesus himself), but you are forgetting that we have a massive priest shortage. In 1960, we had 45,000 seminarians worldwide. Today, we have 4,500. You can't possibly expect such a shortage of clergy (And future clergy) to do all the work for us. We have passed the age where we can sit down comfortably and let the clergy do the work for us, because there's barely any clergy left to do the job anymore. This is why most Catholic apologists are laypeople and not clergy; they are responding to a massive need to evangelize and realize that there is a shortage of priests to do the job for us, so now we all must chip it and do our work.

Edited January 23, 2014 by FuturePriest387