Pliny Posted January 23, 2014 Author Share Posted January 23, 2014 Here's an interesting aside. One of the ladies mentioned previously told me, knowing full well that I receive Communion in the hand, that it's a "sacrilege" to receive Communion in the hand. I din't get angry or defensive. As it turned out, I didn't have time to discuss it further, but if she wishes to "instruct" me again, I will be all ears and even change my evil ways if she can make a valid case (which she can't of course). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilllabettt Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 No bishop can command someone to not commit adultery either. I don't mean "command" like "make you do it." I mean bind people to do something on pain of sin. Your Bishop can bind you to come to Mass on a certain Holy Day or not; bind you to fast or not. The Bishop can't "order" people to stand at the agnus dei, just as he can't order people to receive on the hand or stand for communion. If he tries to, a higher authority intervenes on behalf of the faithful. If you are dead set on saying something to your friend, maybe you could share your own thinking process about your personal decision, without reference to what she's doing. "blah blah blah, I found out in this other diocese they kneel. But I've decided to stand when I'm here because the bishop requests it, and I've decided obedience is a good way to grow closer to Jesus." Don't talk about her choices or her reasons, since you don't know them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reminiscere Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Fr. Jones was trained and ordained to teach and preach (including correcting). Joe Blow wasn't. Fr. Jones is the pastor of souls, and he guides the flock entrusted to him by the Bishop. Joe Blow is one of those sheep. If the shepherd wants to correct, he will. It's not the sheep's place to go correcting other sheep. It's the same Truth whether it comes from Joe Blow or Fr. Jones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilllabettt Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Here's an interesting aside. One of the ladies mentioned previously told me, knowing full well that I receive Communion in the hand, that it's a "sacrilege" to receive Communion in the hand. I din't get angry or defensive. As it turned out, I didn't have time to discuss it further, but if she wishes to "instruct" me again, I will be all ears and even change my evil ways if she can make a valid case (which she can't of course). the plot. it thickens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pliny Posted January 23, 2014 Author Share Posted January 23, 2014 In the case of kneeling (or standing) for the Ecce Agnus Dei, despite local norms, there is no 100% right or wrong. You need to take into consideration immemorial custom, local custom and the fact that Rome allows for persons to stand or kneel. None of your quotes proved a point and all you're doing is preaching your own opinion dogmatically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reminiscere Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 There have been many of these debates here on PM in the past. Don't bring Communion in the hand in here, it's a separate issue. Here's an interesting aside. One of the ladies mentioned previously told me, knowing full well that I receive Communion in the hand, that it's a "sacrilege" to receive Communion in the hand. I din't get angry or defensive. As it turned out, I didn't have time to discuss it further, but if she wishes to "instruct" me again, I will be all ears and even change my evil ways if she can make a valid case (which she can't of course). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotreDame Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 No bishop can command someone to not commit adultery either. There is most definitely "demerit" in knowingly rebelling against the authority of the Bishop. OK, now this thread is making me feel funny :paperbag: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reminiscere Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Actually, my quote of the then-Cardinal Prefect did prove a point! It proved that someone attending Mass is free to stand or kneel, even despite local directives to the contrary. I'm not preaching my opinion dogmatically, but I am certain that I am right in this case. Why? BECAUSE THE COMPETENT AUTHORITY SAID SO. Thank you, please come again. None of your quotes proved a point and all you're doing is preaching your own opinion dogmatically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pliny Posted January 23, 2014 Author Share Posted January 23, 2014 Fr. Jones was trained and ordained to teach and preach (including correcting). Joe Blow wasn't. Fr. Jones is the pastor of souls, and he guides the flock entrusted to him by the Bishop. Joe Blow is one of those sheep. If the shepherd wants to correct, he will. It's not the sheep's place to go correcting other sheep. This is total BS. We have a right and more importantly a DUTY to correct each other. I will concede that whether correction is warranted in my situation is debatable, but that we should never correct each other about anything is not true. The priest can't be everywhere at all times. We can all help each other when we stumble and fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pliny Posted January 23, 2014 Author Share Posted January 23, 2014 Actually, my quote of the then-Cardinal Prefect did prove a point! It proved that someone attending Mass is free to stand or kneel, even despite local directives to the contrary. I'm not preaching my opinion dogmatically, but I am certain that I am right in this case. Why? BECAUSE THE COMPETENT AUTHORITY SAID SO. Thank you, please come again. He clarified a point about the posture AFTER receiving Communion. You have yet to prove the actual point you THOUGHT you were proving with your links regarding the actual topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pliny Posted January 23, 2014 Author Share Posted January 23, 2014 There have been many of these debates here on PM in the past. Don't bring Communion in the hand in here, it's a separate issue. You missed the point. But so what if we get sidetracked into discussion about Communion in the hand (not that that is my intention) and so what if there have been many debates about it? Are you a moderator? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pliny Posted January 23, 2014 Author Share Posted January 23, 2014 Adios amigos for now. It's bed time where I live. I hope you will be back to play again what will be tomorrow for me. This has been lots of fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PadrePioOfPietrelcino Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Actually, my quote of the then-Cardinal Prefect did prove a point! It proved that someone attending Mass is free to stand or kneel, even despite local directives to the contrary. I'm not preaching my opinion dogmatically, but I am certain that I am right in this case. Why? BECAUSE THE COMPETENT AUTHORITY SAID SO. Thank you, please come again. 1) As was pointed out earlier your use of that quote is not consistent with the context to the question it was answering. The question posed to the then Cardinal Prefect by the U.S. Bishops was whether it was ok to institute a norm of unity of standing until all have RECEIVED communion. It was not addressing any other part of the liturgy. 2) It IS the job of all baptized christians to help strengthen the faith of each other. If we were to apply your logic that only FATHER can instruct and teach across the board then we clearly can see that parents are no longer the primary educators of the faith to their children (which they ARE), why do we have lay people teaching RCIA and sponsoring people into the Church? The idea that lay people are so ignorant of their faith that they can not share it with each other is absurd. 3) We CAN and SHOULD charitable correct errors in each others behaviors if there is indeed an error. It's called fraternal correction. I don't know how many people are in the Parish, but for example my home parish is 1800 families, how are two priest supposed to notice everyone who does something not quite right and talk to them about it when he probably isn't noticing not because he doesn't care, but because he is saying the Mass. I'm not advocating taking names and being a liturgical police for the Church, but if, as in this case, A friend is doing something questionable, then I think it is appropriate to speak with them about it. -With that said...I think the key here is speaking with her about her choice. I think you identified the key components of asking why she has chosen to kneel. You said she was active in the Church, so it's possible that these ladies who addressed how you receive communion may have spoken to her about this issue and she thinks she is doing what is right. She may be ignorant of the Bishop's request and being made aware of it deem it proper to obey. There are a number of reasons why she may choose to do it. I would be cautious of seeming judgmental and harsh, which of course a lot of that will depend on the strength od your relationship. In my humble opinion (and therefore correct :) )I say proceed with charity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 That's an interesting way to put it but not what I intended. I'm not going to go up to her and try to raise her to her feet. I intend to provide some information. What is your basis besides personal opinion that it is inappropriate to say anything to her? Who has the authority to dictate the posture of laypeople during Mass? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pliny Posted January 23, 2014 Author Share Posted January 23, 2014 Who has the authority to dictate the posture of laypeople during Mass? OK, one last post for the night... The bishop. And that's what I would like to impress upon my friend...what the bishop dictated...not what someone else dictates who has only part of the truth or quotes (like many of the above) taken out of context to make a case. And thank you padrepioetc for your very thoughtful post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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