Would You Correct A Friend Who Is Doing Something Wrong At Mass?

[beatitude]

You can't help the thoughts but it's wrong to entertain them. I am sure from your writing that you are making assumptions about these peoples sex lives and their openness to life etc. which is inappropriate and borderline sinful (except the thoughts come to you unbidden, like impure thoughts sometimes do to people, and therefore at least initially it's not sinful).

 

I receive a blessing instead of Communion if I eat something too close to Mass time or sometimes just because it's been a while since my last confession and I would prefer to make a confession before receiving. There is rarely any mortal sin involved in my decision not to receive, and I know it's like this for many people. There is no obligation to take Communion at every Mass you can. If I thought that someone was looking at me receiving a blessing and going, "Hm, she looks young and fertile, she could be having sex outside marriage!" I would be a bit creeped out.

 

And if I knew that there was a couple living in irregular circumstances who still came to Mass, but without taking Communion, I would just be glad that they have the faith to come to Mass still and I would pray that God helps them. That's if I noticed them not receiving Communion at all. Why would you notice? I usually have my head bowed at this time, and even if I stared at the front, I wouldn't be able to see who was receiving and who was getting blessed - there is a line of people in the way. Pliny, I don't understand how you are able to notice this about other churchgoers unless you're going out of your way to scrutinise them.

[Aloysius]

Hey man, I realize I was harsh, it just felt like you were being directly insulting to something that I know if very sacred and special to many people, including very close friends of mine, just because it made you uncomfortable.  I know people who found it really special and loved doing it and it enhanced their prayer life and they felt they had to stop because of social pressure, and that's really an awful thing.  people give dirty looks, act cold towards them, snub them for liturgical ministries, etc... all for using a sacramental immemorially connected with the Holy Mass that beautifully enhances their worship of our Lord.  That's why it really annoyed me.  It wasn't an ego trip, it was you striking a nerve by insulting something that's very special to many people.

 

Other than that I have found you respectful and have insisted that the thread stay open so you can make your points, man.  I didn't like people suggesting you were "trolling" and called them out on that (it's an overused word around these parts for "person who's persisting in an argument I strongly disagree with, shouldn't they just change their mind and agree with me already?")... the points about whether you were obsessive especially since they keep recurring are a bit annoying because any good thread on an online forum that miraculously manages to stay on topic will look like it's obsessing over that topic... though in any liturgical matter there is ALWAYS a point for us ALL to reflect upon how much we are allowing that point to distract us from our worship (as all of us are imperfect and each of us find our own distractions, for some of us those distractions are actually an attachment to the rubrics, it can be something that is a detriment to our worship).  Ultimately we must simply agree to disagree, just don't insult women or girls that veil or you'll make me angry, and you clearly don't like me when I'm angry.

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[Pliny]

Oh bother. No I don't think so, it changes nothing. You cannot gain much sympathy if you complain about being ill treated by others here, when you've spoken ill of and have been disrespectful of those that kneel.

Also Winnie is short for Winchester.

 

You're taking this a little too seriously.

 

Also, for the record, I kneel as well, just not at the times my bishop and good manners say that I should stand or sit.

[Pliny]

And if I knew that there was a couple living in irregular circumstances who still came to Mass, but without taking Communion, I would just be glad that they have the faith to come to Mass still and I would pray that God helps them. That's if I noticed them not receiving Communion at all. Why would you notice? I usually have my head bowed at this time, and even if I stared at the front, I wouldn't be able to see who was receiving and who was getting blessed - there is a line of people in the way. Pliny, I don't understand how you are able to notice this about other churchgoers unless you're going out of your way to scrutinise them.

 

 

I had a feeling I would get a reaction like this.

 

I don't walk around with my eyes closed during Mass.  I don't particularly look for anything, but if someone I know who always receives Communion receives a blessing, and I happen to notice it, then I notice it.  I don't have to go out of my way to see what the person in front of me does in the Communion line, and I especially don't have go out of my way to notice someone standing at the end of the pew waving everyone past her and not going up herself.  Again, this is something that takes a second to notice, but much more than that to explain, and there will always be those who can't put it in perspective or who are looking to turn an innocent observation into something bad.

 

Note that I never said anything about "sex outside of marriage," but was referring to married couples.

 

I think it's natural to notice things and think about things.  But maybe it's not smart to post about such things here since they will often be misunderstood and misinterpreted, and there will always be those who are quick to see an evil intent.

 

However this issue has made me think about tow things and I have two questions.  These are questions and not positions I'm taking--I really don't know:

 

1) Are those in an "irregular" situation in a state of mortal sin?  For example I have a friend who cannot receive the sacraments and does not receive Communion.  I'm fairly certain it has to do with a divorce and remarriage.  She goes to Mass regularly but receives a blessing.  Note that I didn't have to go out of my way to "scrutinize" what she does, since she told me herself, and since she often is just ahead of me in the Communion line.

 

2) If a husband forces a form of contraception on a wife, and she goes along with it, but unwillingly, can she receive Communion under any circumstances?  Is she in a state of mortal sin?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lilllabettt]

I think it's natural to notice things and think about things.

 

 

 

It's "natural" to notice things. It may be "natural" to "think" about those things, too. But there is the line where you need to start acting supernaturally - when you start thinking about things that are none of your concern.  Going back to my post in this thread about stopping involuntarily mental commentary on things you notice ... if you realize you are "thinking" about things that are none of your business, interrupt your train of thought and refocus your attention elsewhere. With practice it will get easier to "see" things without producing mental commentary.  This is a vitally important skill for recollection at Mass. Its a help to prayer life in general.

[Nihil Obstat]

Several saints have written that it is best, both for you and others, to avoid noticing what anyone else does or does not do in the communion line.

[Pliny]

Hey man, I realize I was harsh, it just felt like you were being directly insulting to something that I know if very sacred and special to many people, including very close friends of mine, just because it made you uncomfortable.  I know people who found it really special and loved doing it and it enhanced their prayer life and they felt they had to stop because of social pressure, and that's really an awful thing.  people give dirty looks, act cold towards them, snub them for liturgical ministries, etc... all for using a sacramental immemorially connected with the Holy Mass that beautifully enhances their worship of our Lord.  That's why it really annoyed me.  It wasn't an ego trip, it was you striking a nerve by insulting something that's very special to many people.

 

 

I wouldn't say it makes me feel "uncomfortable."  In fact there was a time when my wife had beautiful long blonde hair and I tried to get her to wear one, thinking at that time that the main reason for the veil is to hide a woman's "glory" and to be less distracting to others.  I understand now there is more to it than that, especially since--and no insult intended--almost all who I see wearing the veil in my church have left their glory days far behind them.  So I'm sure they have good reasons, but as a matter of taste and sensitivity to the norms of our culture and the way we dress, I think they're a little out of place.  Just my opinion, and I would never harass, pressure, or insult any of the ladies regarding their veils.  In our church a veil may not be worn by a lector or eucharistic minister because of the pastor feels it causes a distraction and draws undue attention to the wearer, and I don't see why it would be such a hard thing to do for veil wearers to lay that sacramental aside on those days so that they can do both.  Anyway, I shouldn't have mentioned veils in this thread. 

 

Other than that I have found you respectful and have insisted that the thread stay open so you can make your points, man.  I didn't like people suggesting you were "trolling" and called them out on that (it's an overused word around these parts for "person who's persisting in an argument I strongly disagree with, shouldn't they just change their mind and agree with me already?")... 

 

 

I appreciate that you were fair and supportive.  I think in a debate sub-forum that things should be...."debated."  In a real debate, sometimes positions are taken that are contrary to what the debater believes, for the sake of the debate and to bring as many ideas and facts to light.  So even if I didn't believe what I posted (which I did), it wouldn't be "trolling," would it?  The only thing is that I pushed it harder than I would have in a real life conversation.  

 

You made some very good points and I have not ruled out that you might in the end be right, though if I'm in error, I'm erring on the side of believing my pastor and what I believe the archdiocese is telling me, which seems like a sensible way to bet.  But even if I were to concede that you're right in principle, I still cannot understand why a personal preference could not be subordinated for the sake of unity and out of respect for the pastor, the bishop and each other.  I don't mean to debate this point any more, but I don't understand what's so hard about giving it up, and to me it not only seems a little rude, but reveals a spiritual immaturity.

 

However, this is a SMALL issue.  It became big here in a thread, but I realize in its proper perspective it's not that big of a deal.  I have another friend who was having some problems and I suggested to her that she come to daily Mass when she can and that it might bring her some peace.  She came last week and she knelt at the Lamb of God because she saw someone in front of her doing that, and I have little doubt she was going along because she didn't know any better or because she thought this was a daily Mass custom, but again, this is a small thing, and the big thing and the important thing is that she came to Mass.

 

though in any liturgical matter there is ALWAYS a point for us ALL to reflect upon how much we are allowing that point to distract us from our worship (as all of us are imperfect and each of us find our own distractions, for some of us those distractions are actually an attachment to the rubrics, it can be something that is a detriment to our worship).

 

 

Agreed.  

Thanks for an interesting discussion.

[Pliny]

Several saints have written that it is best, both for you and others, to avoid noticing what anyone else does or does not do in the communion line.

 

I do avoid it.  But I can't UNnotice what has been inadvertently noticed.

[Nihil Obstat]

I do avoid it. But I can't UNnotice what has been inadvertently noticed.

One might try. Personally I do.

[freedomreigns]

 

to me it not only seems a little rude, but reveals a spiritual immaturity.

 

 

 

Pliny- this has been my entire puzzlement this whole thread.

 

I actually agree that it might be better to stand as a form of obedience and unity, but I don't think it okay to judge others for their decision to kneel. You don't know these peoples' intentions.  Maybe they are trying to give the pastor and bishop a one-finger-salute, but I doubt it.  I actually think I remember it being a specific virtue to think the best of others, I just don't remember the official name of the virtue.  I think the opposite vice might be rash judgment.  Just because you aren't confronting these people does not mean you are not judging them in your own heart.

 

I don't think any of us, besides maybe a confessor or spiritual director, should be in the business of opining about the spiritual state of others.  It seems that is what the self-righteous man did in contrast to the publican who saw his sin and knew that it was in need of mercy.  Not trying to condemn you either, Just food for thought.

[Pliny]

I understand your point FR. And I agree, except what you haven't taken into consideration is that I know these people. I've had many discussions with some of them. I have patiently endured their preachiness among other things. Overall they're good people but somewhat lopsided and a little paranoid as I see it. Nevertheless I'll still strive to do as you suggested. But for now the best I can do is consider that they don't know any better.

[Pliny]

So what is the page limit for a thread?

[Nihil Obstat]

I understand your point FR. And I agree, except what you haven't taken into consideration is that I know these people. I've had many discussions with some of them. I have patiently endured their preachiness among other things. Overall they're good people but somewhat lopsided and a little paranoid as I see it. Nevertheless I'll still strive to do as you suggested. But for now the best I can do is consider that they don't know any better.

You know, posts like this are the reason you are not getting all that much in the way of warm feelings in this thread. In a post where you are trying to establish your respectful relationship with such people with whom you disagree, you still cannot help but call them preachy and paranoid and imply that they are ignorant. 

I sure hope the people I go to Mass with do not talk about me like this behind my back if I do things they find odd.

[Pliny]

You know, posts like this are the reason you are not getting all that much in the way of warm feelings in this thread. In a post where you are trying to establish your respectful relationship with such people with whom you disagree, you still cannot help but call them preachy and paranoid and imply that they are ignorant. 

I sure hope the people I go to Mass with do not talk about me like this behind my back if I do things they find odd.

 

I said I have endured their preachiness (of some, not all).  That's a fact.  I'm not talking behind their backs in any harmful way because those people and I am anonymous.  And yes some of them are paranoid and think that our Bishop had evil intentions.  

 

I'm just trying to keep this real and put things into perspective.  Theory is one thing, but reality is another.

[KnightofChrist]

I guess this all raises the question of whether or not gossip is acceptable if the name of the person(s) is hidden.