Would You Correct A Friend Who Is Doing Something Wrong At Mass?

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

http://youtu.be/uCVDofoxN1s

[Aloysius]

So this is the way this thread ends, not with a bang, but a whimper.

[BG45]

So this is the way this thread ends, not with a bang, but a whimper.

Alhamdulillah!

[Pliny]

I have a few final points to make in no particular order:

 

1) If our gracious moderator wishes to euthanize what has been a very interesting, entertaining, and successful thread, I am fine with that, not that she has to ask my permission, but it was nice that she did.  I am also fine with her leaving it to suffer and die of natural causes.

 

2) Is it possible that an internet liturgy geek could know more than my pastor, bishop, and renowned world-famous Catholic apologist Jimmy Aiken?  Of course it's possible.  But should I trust an anonymous internet poster over my pastor?  At this time I don't think so. I'll consider his perspective, and might look into his reasoning deeper, but since I presently don't have the time to do much in depth research, I don't see how I can go wrong trusting my pastor and what my diocese says regarding this issue, and that Jimmy Aiken and my common sense agree is a bonus.

 

3) It was not my finest hour when I said that veils "look dumb."  However, the reaction to that comment was disproportionate to the offense.  A little too self-righteous and angry, I would say.  And I think it was sad that it got so many props for being little more than telling off my "freaking" self--a form of piling on that is not charitable or worthy of a Catholic message board IMHO.  Besides that, what was implied was so off target. I had not made the connection at that time of veils to mantillas, and was not being "ethnocentric." I am learning Spanish, I'm a lector and sometimes choir singer at the Spanish Mass, I go to every Spanish Mass, I'm involved in the Hispanic community. There's no way he could have known that, of course, but it's ridiculous to infer "ethnocentrism" from one comment.  Of course I probably I was being unfair to say that veils "look dumb," especially since I have looked at some photos online, and some do look attractive and tasteful.  I shouldn't have judged all veils by the one that sticks out most in my mind worn by one of the ladies at our church.  All this one needs is a dangling price-tag and she'll be good to go.  However, overall I think they are out-of-place in the Novus Ordo Mass and draw unnecessary attention to the wearer, but that is just a personal opinion.  My apologies for offending the veil wearers here.  Besides, if I'm going to criticize something that is worn in church, it should be the Fourth Degree Knights costume. Wow! Swords and funny looking hats!  I think they're a couple of centuries behind in their style but they seem to have fun being "knights" for the day.  

 

4) A text without a context is a pretext.  A line from Canon law can be cited to me, but how do I know how to put it in the proper perspective or give it the proper weight?  I need to understand the context or else it's not much different than taking one-liners out of the Bible to prove a protestant position.  And I don't have the time to learn the entire context, so once again, I have to put my trust in my pastor and bishop.

 

5) There were far too many posts in this thread that failed to address the topic.  "What's wrong with you?" is an ad hominem "argument."  Likewise all the comments inferring that I am "preoccupied" with what people do at church, which is not the case.  If I made a thread about not liking the color of the ceiling of my church, would it be presumed that's all I think about and I spend the entire Mass staring at the ceiling?

 

6) It will be very hard to convince me that in a choir at least, that a uniform posture, so long as it does not go against the rubrics, cannot be enforced.  Some choirs require an actual "uniform" or choir gown, and if someone doesn't want to wear one then they don't belong in that choir, and likewise with a uniform posture.  It cannot be argued that one is being forced to stand instead of kneel, since that person is more than welcome to do so as a regular parishioner and not be a part of the choir.

 

7) Why wouldn't we be told about our options if we have them? Do we have devious and deceitful bishops and pastors?

 

8) What's so hard about doing what everybody else does?  Why not instead be humble and allow your personal preference to give way for the sake of unity and to not confuse others around you?  The norm isn't good enough?  You have to one-up the rest in a visible manner?

 

9) It's so much more than just "theory."  It's no coincidence that at least in my church, the troublemakers and rebellious types come from within that group who go against our pastor and bishop regarding liturgical postures.

 

10) Lastly, I have decided not to say anything to anyone about postures--except if the subject comes up naturally.  The only thing I did was give a couple of papers about it to someone I know well, asking her to read it and let me know what she thinks.  Surprisingly to me, she became very huffy and defensive, even though I was't pushing my position.  I was disappointed in her because I could see that she was not as humble as I thought she was, and after thinking about that and the other ladies I've mentioned, my belief is that if assuming a special posture does not proceed from ignorance, it proceeds from pride.

 

 

 

 

 

[Aloysius]

Nothing new here...

 

I can concede that perhaps "ethnocentric" was misdirected, it came from an assumption that you were talking about the Mexican friend when you referenced those who wear veils, especially since you suggested hats are more appropriate.  Since you clarified, it no longer applies.  Anyway I am glad you recognized it was not a good comment to make, I realize I reacted harshly, but from my perspective it is right up there with saying rosaries look dumb because veils are likewise a sacramental that people use to aid their prayer life, making any such comments totally not cool, bro.

[NotreDame]

About the veils...  I was just thinking about this...

 

There is one girl at church that goes to daily mass from time to time, sits way up at the front.  From what I can tell after mass, she is smoking hot, but during mass she puts a sweater and a big veil on, so I can barely even tell if it's her and there is zero distraction-factor.  So, from my standpoint, in cases such as this, veils serve a very charitable purpose.

 

And yes, when I was writing this I too thought of this meme:

 

[cmaD2006]

I have a few final points to make in no particular order:

1) If our gracious moderator wishes to euthanize what has been a very interesting, entertaining, and successful thread, I am fine with that, not that she has to ask my permission, but it was nice that she did. I am also fine with her leaving it to suffer and die of natural causes.

I was hoping that it had died of natural causes ... but at least Phatmass has an euthanasia clause. It'll be killed off once it reaches the page limit :evil:

[PhuturePriest]

I was hoping that it had died of natural causes ... but at least Phatmass has an euthanasia clause. It'll be killed off once it reaches the page limit :evil:

 

That's nothing me making a second thread can't fix.

[KnightofChrist]

Precious things are always veiled. Jesus Christ veils himself in the Most Blessed Sacrament, we can only see Him with the eyes of faith. But if He instead showed Himself to us in glory, unveiled, every knee would indeed bow or perhaps we would all 'fall down at His feet as if dead'. If union with Heaven could be seen at the Holy Mass, and Heavn in all its majesty proclaimed and announced the Lamb of God, how many could not but kneel?

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Perhaps don't awaken sleeping giants once they have fallen asleep, giants need more like 10 hours sleep every night. Wouldn't be wise. Unless where un heated and out of battle mode. Where brothers and sisters in christ. But heyo glad to see some apologies it did all get a little heated. Can we start an official apology thread?  :)

Edited February 4, 2014 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[Winchester]

About the veils...  I was just thinking about this...

 

There is one girl at church that goes to daily mass from time to time, sits way up at the front.  From what I can tell after mass, she is smoking hot, but during mass she puts a sweater and a big veil on, so I can barely even tell if it's her and there is zero distraction-factor.  So, from my standpoint, in cases such as this, veils serve a very charitable purpose.

 

And yes, when I was writing this I too thought of this meme:

 

You be trying to look the whole time.

 

[NotreDame]

You be trying to look the whole time.

 

 

I would... but with the sweater and veil she's indistinguishable from the old church ladies.  Plus she is hard-core and doesn't turn around during the sign of peace.  I don't find out it's her until communion, when I'm all heads-down.  Basically, I'm stuck cornering her on the way out of mass.  Not weird at all.
 

[Maggyie]

How does this priest have so much free time to continue this discussion with you? I mean, we're kind of low priests. Sorry but it does come off pretty OCD, all this hyper-focus... Incidentally this is one of the big turn-offs to Catholicism - an obsession with documents, conformity in tiny details, etc. I can't picture Jesus telling people they need to find and read the right document in order to worship him correctly. This may make me a bad Catholic but there it is.

[PhuturePriest]

I would... but with the sweater and veil she's indistinguishable from the old church ladies.  Plus she is hard-core and doesn't turn around during the sign of peace.  I don't find out it's her until communion, when I'm all heads-down.  Basically, I'm stuck cornering her on the way out of mass.  Not weird at all.
 

 

I went to Mass by myself last week, and when I turned around to shake the peoples' hands behind me, there was this really attractive girl my age there, who looked really stunned when she saw me and giggled awkwardly. It was my good-looks that did it. Or the wedding ring I was offering. Either/or.

[cmaD2006]

I can't picture Jesus telling people they need to find and read the right document in order to worship him correctly. This may make me a bad Catholic but there it is.

 
Actually Jesus was an advocate of following the Spirit of the Law.  Case in point -- when the disciples were picking at grains in the field and eating (that was considered work according to Jewish Custom at the time).
 

Picking Grain on the Sabbath. (Mt 12: 1-8)
At that time Jesus was going through a field of grain on the sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat them. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “See, your disciples are doing what is unlawful to do on the sabbath.” He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he and his companions were hungry, how he went into the house of God and ate the bread of offering, which neither he nor his companions but only the priests could lawfully eat? Or have you not read in the law that on the sabbath the priests serving in the temple violate the sabbath and are innocent? I say to you, something greater than the temple is here. If you knew what this meant, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned these innocent men. For the Son of Man is Lord of the sabbath.”

 

And there's another passage (won't look it up right now) where Jesus again states he's here not to abolish the law but fulfill it. 

 

I would dare say that if we focus so much on the letter of the law we probably fall into a pharisaic attitude, which is not what Jesus desires.  Remember -- the people he most criticized were the pharisees, and those that He had the most compassion towards were the "worst of sinners."

 

I am probably not making 100% sense (my head is not working like normal... migraine) so my apologies.  And Maggie -- no, you're not a bad Catholic for having said what you said.