Would You Correct A Friend Who Is Doing Something Wrong At Mass?

[Lilllabettt]

so ... the truth is that it is an American thing to be twitchy about the posture of lay people during Mass. In other parts of the world there is less of an expectation that the congregation will do everything in lockstep. It is not a political thing, either.

 

In my home diocese the Bishop requests us to stand. So I do. Some people choose to kneel.There is merit in agreeing to the Bishop's request. There is no demerit in people exercising their right to kneel.  No bishop can "command" people to stand. They request it.

 

 

 

Edited January 23, 2014 by Lilllabettt

[reminiscere]

Read the last words on the same page: 

 

"For those who wish to kneel, where the norm is standing, the right to do so has been secured by the Holy See." That's based on Prot. n. 855/03/L, where the Prefect of the Congregation clearly stated: 

 

"The mens (that means "mind of the Church," by the way) is that the prescription of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, no. 43, is intended, on one hand, to ensure within broad limits a certain uniformity of posture within the congregation for the various parts of the celebration of the Holy Mass, and on the other, to not regulate posture rigidly in such a way that those who wish to kneel or sit would no longer be free."

 

And this is what I got from your first link:

 

43 ... The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.

 

 

Note the last six words please.

 

[Pliny]

No one should care what others are doing at Mass, as long as they are reverent and not disrupting the Holy Sacrifice. How recollected or attentive are you (or trying to be anyway?) during Mass, if you're focused on what others are doing? As St. Benedict says in his Rule: "Let us therefore consider how we are to conductourselves in the sight of God and of His Angels..." 

 

I am sure that they are kneeling in good faith. They are following a common, ancient tradition which is permitted them by Rome... it's not some modern liturgical abuse. 

 

 

I find their rebellious actions to be a distraction and a disturbance of what should be unity, hence why the Bishop makes the rule.

 

I try to sit in the front where I don't have to see them, but some have the nerve to flaunt their "humility" from the front row.

 

They are not following any ancient tradition.  The ancient tradition is that Jesus speaks through the Bishop who has the authority to tell them to stand at that point.

[Pliny]

"For those who wish to kneel, where the norm is standing, the right to do so has been secured by the Holy See." That's based on Prot. n. 855/03/L, where the Prefect of the Congregation clearly stated: 

 

"The mens (that means "mind of the Church," by the way) is that the prescription of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, no. 43, is intended, on one hand, to ensure within broad limits a certain uniformity of posture within the congregation for the various parts of the celebration of the Holy Mass, and on the other, to not regulate posture rigidly in such a way that those who wish to kneel or sit would no longer be free."

 

 

I've seen this before and it's out of context.

 

This is referring to the posture AFTER having received Communion.

[NotreDame]

I didn't even know this was a thing.  I've been at some parishes where they kneel, a few where they stand, some where people kind of do both.   One thing is sure: I've never been in any diocese where it was uniform - although the links say it is supposed to be uniform one way or the other. 

 

Personally, I always kneel regardless of what anyone else does.  Like I said, I didn't even know this was a 'thing.'  I also doubt the little old ladies know it's a thing.  Probably best to chill on that idea for a bit.

 

[reminiscere]

Why do you presume to correct? Unless I'm mistaken, you were not given a mandate by the Pope, the local Ordinary, or the Pastor. Those three individuals are responsible for the souls of those concerned, and for the Sacred Liturgy. Not you. 

 

If you're so concerned, offer up your desire to correct them, no matter how much you want to, and how much you feel it your place to do so. Maybe the Holy Spirit will be so pleased by your sacrifice, that He will then inspire these souls to stand instead of kneel. :)

 

And by what authority do you make the statement in your last paragraph?  Who says we can't correct each other?  I want to be corrected if I'm doing something wrong.  So what if it comes from a lay person?

 

Edited January 23, 2014 by reminiscere

[Lilllabettt]

I find their rebellious actions to be a distraction and a disturbance of what should be unity, hence why the Bishop makes the rule.

 

I try to sit in the front where I don't have to see them, but some have the nerve to flaunt their "humility" from the front row.

 

They are not following any ancient tradition.  The ancient tradition is that Jesus speaks through the Bishop who has the authority to tell them to stand at that point.

 

ay, unity, but this is not the Borg. In parishes of the diocese of Rome you will find people kneeling and standing and crossing themselves all over the place.

 

there is merit in following your Bishop's request to stand. Brownie points. There is no demerit in exercising the option to kneel.

[Pliny]

so ... the truth is that it is an American thing to be twitchy about the posture of lay people during Mass. In other parts of the world there is less of an expectation that the congregation will do everything in lockstep. It is not a political thing, either.

 

In my home diocese the Bishop requests us to stand. So I do. Some people choose to kneel.There is merit in agreeing to the Bishop's request. There is no demerit in people exercising their right to kneel.  No bishop can "command" people to stand. They request it.

 

No bishop can command someone to not commit adultery either.

 

There is most definitely "demerit" in knowingly rebelling against the authority of the Bishop.

[reminiscere]

Where I live, by the way. No, I'm not kidding. Yes it's almost 6 in the morning, and I'm up early. I'll be going to Mass at 7 at St. Peter's as I do almost every morning. And what Lilllabettt says is absolutely true and I see this at every Mass. And guess what - no one seems to care: priest, or people. 

 

Pope Francis chose to wash the feet of women (let alone non-Catholics) on Holy Thursday. Technically, although he is the Supreme Lawmaker, he disobeyed the rubrics. I guess with your absolute fixation on this point, you would presume to correct His Holiness too. 

 

In parishes of the diocese of Rome you will find people kneeling and standing and crossing themselves all over the place.

 

[Pliny]

Why do you presume to correct? Unless I'm mistaken, you were not given a mandate by the Pope, the local Ordinary, or the Pastor. Those three individuals are responsible for the souls of those concerned, and for the Sacred Liturgy. Not you. 

 

If you're so concerned, offer up your desire to correct them, no matter how much you want to, and how much you feel it your place to do so. Maybe the Holy Spirit will be so pleased by your sacrifice, that He will then inspire these souls to stand instead of kneel. :)

 

Note that my question is in reference to a friend.  A person I know.  A person who only recently began doing this.

 

I have no intention of going on a crusade to correct all of them.  Just the one who I know and respect and who I believe has a very humble heart and will do the right thing when she knows what it is.

[Pliny]

Where I live, by the way. No, I'm not kidding. Yes it's almost 6 in the morning, and I'm up early. I'll be going to Mass at 7 at St. Peter's as I do almost every morning. And what Lilllabettt says is absolutely true and I see this at every Mass. And guess what - no one seems to care: priest, or people. 

 

Pope Francis chose to wash the feet of women (let alone non-Catholics) on Holy Thursday. Technically, although he is the Supreme Lawmaker, he disobeyed the rubrics. I guess with your absolute fixation on this point, you would presume to correct His Holiness too. 

 

The pope has the authority to make up the liturgy as he goes.  The laity do not.

[reminiscere]

Well adultery is against the Divine and Natural Laws, and so that kind of goes without saying. God commands not to commit adultery (see Commandment #6).

 

However, unlike you, a Bishop has the mission of teaching, governing, and sanctifying his flock. A confessor can judge and correct souls in the confessional. He has the duty and the ability to judge and to correct, given to him by God at his ordination. You don't. 

 

No bishop can command someone to not commit adultery either.

 

There is most definitely "demerit" in knowingly rebelling against the authority of the Bishop.

 

[reminiscere]

Actually, you're wrong. The pope cannot make up the liturgy as he goes along. Even the Pope is bound to "say the black and do the red." He cannot say whatever he wants for the Eucharistic Prayer, or Consecration, etc. The Sacred Liturgy can't be changed on a whim, even if it is the Pope's. 

 

The pope has the authority to make up the liturgy as he goes.  The laity do not.

 

[Pliny]

However, unlike you, a Bishop has the mission of teaching, governing, and sanctifying his flock. A confessor can judge and correct souls in the confessional. He has the duty and the ability to judge and to correct, given to him by God at his ordination. You don't. 

 

 

Well I didn't intend to sanctify anyone.  Just to say that, "dude, you're kneeling at a time when you should be standing.  Here's why."

 

It's against the laws of the Church to do that?  There is no right or responsibility for us to be "correcting one another"?

I don't mind if I'm corrected.  I appreciate the Truth.  It's the same Truth whether it comes from Joe Blow or Fr. Jones.

[reminiscere]

In the case of kneeling (or standing) for the Ecce Agnus Dei, despite local norms, there is no 100% right or wrong. You need to take into consideration immemorial custom, local custom and the fact that Rome allows for persons to stand or kneel. 

 

It's strange to me that you feel you know better than Holy Mother Church. "Rome has spoken, the case is closed." Deal with it. 

 

As St. Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians 6:11-13 (quoted by Benedict XVI in his Accompanying Letter to Summorum Pontificum in 2007): "Our mouth is open to you... our hearts are wide. You are not restricted by us, but you are restricted in your own affections. In return... widen your hearts also." 

 

Note that my question is in reference to a friend.  A person I know.  A person who only recently began doing this.

 

I have no intention of going on a crusade to correct all of them.  Just the one who I know and respect and who I believe has a very humble heart and will do the right thing when she knows what it is.