Would You Correct A Friend Who Is Doing Something Wrong At Mass?

[cmaD2006]

Ok ... 9 pages is enough.  A number of people gave plenty of suggestions and quoted the appropriate Church documents.  Whatever you decide to do Pliny I do hope it goes well.

 

Closing the thread.

[cmaD2006]

Having had a chance to talk this over with the other mods ... we've decided to punt this to the debate table.

 

And just a gentle reminder that Pliny is new to PM ... so be kind :).

 

Finally ... I can't resist.  In honor of today's patron saint:

 

 [attachment=3247:patron_saint_shopping.jpg]

[Nihil Obstat]

And just a gentle reminder that Pliny is new to PM ... so be kind :).

Four years still counts as new? :hehe:

[cmaD2006]

Ok I'm being silly ... I've got another PMer in mind who *is* new.  But I guess Pliny is newer compared to me. :)

 

Bear with me everyone ... a bit tired, long week, I'm fffffrrrreeeeeezzzzzziiiiinnnnnggggg cold and fed up of the ice (my windshield wiper fluid does NOT flow well when it gets below 32!).

 

[Aloysius]

coolio.  while I did suggest we not close the thread, I also did agree that it had pretty much been exhausted, so I don't plan to post back unless there is some unique new point made.  but Pliny has said he will be discussing this with his pastor and will share that conversation on here, so I am curious to hear what the pastor has to say to him.

 

I'd also like to take this opportunity to say that I don't think Pliny was "trolling", as that implies someone who is insincere about their position and is only arguing to stir up controversy.  Perhaps he's stubborn, but people are often stubborn in their positions in discussions on online phorums.  generally one has to keep in mind that when you have a disagreement on a thread, it is very unlikely that the person you disagree with will concede your point to you, so your argument is really intended to convince the audience who is reading the thread rather than the person you're arguing with... and the person you disagree with your goal should be simply to plant the seeds of your reasoning so that maybe eventually they'll change their mind, but given human nature that changing of their mind will usually only occur sometime after your argument is long since done ;)

 

and finally, just because the thread is open doesn't mean you can't derail it into silliness.  that's a fine phatmass tradition to do to threads that have gone past their prime.  :smokey:

[cruciatacara]

[CatholicsAreKewl]

I used to do this when I was like 12. I'd see people in the distance talking and after mass i'd go up to them all like, "I saw what you did back there... and I don't approve". I was so cool back then.

[Pliny]

I had not posted here for three or four years and my experiece was minimal, so it does seem almost like a new board to me. I appreciate the graciousness of those involved in reopening and moving this thread.

I was never intentionally "trolling." I don't understand why someone who is not a moderator would enter a thread just to make that implication. That seems to me to be rude and disruptive, and can tend to derail a thread.

I have a few more contributions I would like to make concerning this topic and going forward I will take care to be more thoughtful. I apologize for my last spurt of posts where I may have been repeating myself and where it started to "go in circles."

The first wave of posts that came at me were of the nature that it's not my place to make this correction, but then it evolved into a discussion about the authority of the bishop and some have concluded that the bishop does not have the authority to enforce a directive regarding a posture, so that would mean there is nothing to correct. And this is the sticking point for me--that allegedly the bishop has no such authority.

I am not a member of the "liturgical police." I've seen people do all kinds of out-of-the-ordinary things at mass, including spontaneously singing two verses of Ave Maria from the pews after Communion. I've never said anything to anyone. But I was a little shocked that my friend went from humble obedience to what in my mind appears to be "prideful defiance" for the sake of her own personal piety. However, she is a very humble person and careful to do what is right, so she may not understand. Or am I the one who doesn't understand? I prefer to kneel at that point too, but don't because I respect the authority I think the bishop has in this matter.

The bottom line for me at this point is that as far as this discussion is concerned, the greater shock for me is the conclusion drawn here by many, that the bishop does not have this authority and we can in good conscience yield to our personal preference, and I would like to resolve this, at least for myself.

Edited January 25, 2014 by Pliny

[Lil Red]

The bottom line for me at this point is that as far as this discussion is concerned, the greater shock for me is the conclusion drawn here by many, that the bishop does not have this authority and we can in good conscience yield to our personal preference, and I would like to resolve this, at least for myself.

 

you state that you wish not to go in circles, but half your post is re-iterating the same old points. :blink: 

 

at any rate, this part of your post is intriguing to me because I think too often in America we find ourselves asking for permission for things we do not need to because at some point in our lives, we should have informed our conscience to the point where we can decide whatever it is for ourselves. we don't need to run to our priest for spiritual direction every time we need to make a decision. Where the bishops & the Vatican have informed us that the normative posture is what our bishop decides, but as many have said, if your informed conscience (after prayer, reflection, and reading what the Church says) says to kneel, then kneel without being disobedient. perhaps the Lord is calling you, Pliny, to work on being obedient to a higher authority (your bishop) by not kneeling. but at the same time, perhaps the Lord is calling this person you know to work on being humble by kneeling when everyone is standing. 

 

an example: when I felt I was called (in a loose sense, not in a vocation sense) to veil at Mass, other people saw it as a prideful "Look at me" thing, when in reality it was a very humbling thing to do (nothing more humbling than being shamed by others because I veiled at Mass). I wasn't veiling to show other people up, I was veiling because I felt called to.

 

now, veiling isn't required but it's not discouraged either. i think this is a good parallel to kneeling at this point because your bishop is stating that the norm is to kneel but he is NOT discouraging kneeling at that point either. (because he can't.)

 

honestly, this will be my last post at this time, because I feel that others can do a much better job explaining this than I (and have done so) and you aren't bringing up new points either. I encourage you to talk to your priest AND the bishop, and inform your own conscience at this point. Be mindful that if you approach your friend you might be making her feel even worse about what she is doing even though she might have informed herself differently than you. Be cautious about how you might impact another's spiritual life.  

[Pliny]

This is a long thread lil red, and it just was unlocked, and I was doing a little summary before going forward again.

 

now, veiling isn't required but it's not discouraged either. i think this is a good parallel to kneeling at this point because your bishop is stating that the norm is to kneel but he is NOT discouraging kneeling at that point either. (because he can't.)

 

 

I understand what you're saying about veiling, though sadly, some of the ladies at our church, coincidentally the same ones who do the kneeling, speak as if it is a requirement and disrespectful to do otherwise.  (And they are the same ones who say it is wrong to receive Communion in the hand).  But that's not a good parallel because it's not addressed in the GIRM as is kneeling at the Lamb of God.

 

That the bishop can't discourage kneeling when he encourages standing, or that discouragement is implicit in his directive to stand is what I wish to resolve.  I'm not convinced you're right about that.  You saw some arguments here that convinced you, and that's fine, but that doesn't mean they necessarily must convince me.

 

Now I didn't intend to "repeat myself" again, but this is a legitimate response to your post.

 

I have decided for now not to approach my friend because I can't think of a way to do it without it being awkward.  The other factor is that she is Mexican and her English skills are not that great and my Spanish skills are not that great.  We can communicate using a combination of English and Spanish, and I could get my point across in Spanish, but my Spanish isn't good enough for a sophisticated follow-up conversation.  So I'm going to wait to see if there is a more natural way to do this, unless in the interim, I become convinced that she and others really do have the legitimate right to ignore the mandate or directive, or whatever is the appropriate term.

 

I'm not going to post any more about this until I have something new to add.

 

 

[NotreDame]

That the bishop can't discourage kneeling when he encourages standing, or that discouragement is implicit in his directive to stand is what I wish to resolve.  I'm not convinced you're right about that.  You saw some arguments here that convinced you, and that's fine, but that doesn't mean they necessarily must convince me.
 

 

The arguments here have been somewhat overwhelming that people have a right to follow their conscience and kneel if they so choose without being disobedient.  So if I were you I'd think of exactly what level of proof it would take to convince you that this is the case and then I'd go look for that proof. 

[Nihil Obstat]

The arguments here have been somewhat overwhelming that people have a right to follow their conscience and kneel if they so choose without being disobedient.  So if I were you I'd think of exactly what level of proof it would take to convince you that this is the case and then I'd go look for that proof.

Sounds like he wants chapters and verse numbers... :unsure:

[Lil Red]

But that's not a good parallel because it's not addressed in the GIRM as is kneeling at the Lamb of God.

 

That the bishop can't discourage kneeling when he encourages standing, or that discouragement is implicit in his directive to stand is what I wish to resolve.  I'm not convinced you're right about that.  You saw some arguments here that convinced you, and that's fine, but that doesn't mean they necessarily must convince me.

 

 

I didn't need convincing. I had already informed my conscience on this matter a long time ago. you're right that veiling isn't a perfect example, but it is still a good parallel. so there. 

 

So I'm going to wait to see if there is a more natural way to do this, unless in the interim, I become convinced that she and others really do have the legitimate right to ignore the mandate or directive, or whatever is the appropriate term.

 

as I've said, I think you should pray, read, reflect, and go to your priest & bishop and ask them and inform your own conscience on this matter. and stop saying that people are ignoring their bishops. 

[NotreDame]

Sounds like he wants chapters and verse numbers... :unsure:

 

Well, it's fair to ask oneself "at what point would I believe _______ ?"  Maybe some people would want to personally ask a priest or a bishop this kind of thing. 

 

To be honest, I'm not sure that priests would be able to give answers nearly as thorough as those on this thread.  I also think most priests would say just to "follow your conscience" since that would be the more pastoral answer.  So the reality is that asking a priest isn't likely to do much good. 

 

If the biggest concern is authority (and that seems to be the case to some extent) then asking a Bishop could help.  If the same Bishop that asks for people to stand happens to say that people are free to kneel if their conscience compels them, well... Then problem solved.

 

If that Bishop were to say "no, they must stand or be disobedient", then you'd want a follow-up question as to why the Bishop feels that way (ie., what's his justification for claiming disobedience.)
 

Again, one really needs to think about what level of proof they need to believe one way or the other.

[Lil Red]

I didn't need convincing. I had already informed my conscience on this matter a long time ago. you're right that veiling isn't a perfect example, but it is still a good parallel. so there. 

 

 

 

 

as I've said, I think you should pray, read, reflect, and go to your priest & bishop and ask them and inform your own conscience on this matter. and stop saying that people are ignoring their bishops. 

 

i can't edit my post but here's what i'd say instead:

 

feel free to inform your conscience and ignore me utterly. seems like the best way to go. honestly.