Would You Correct A Friend Who Is Doing Something Wrong At Mass?

[Pliny]

In our diocese we are instructed to stand after the Lamb of God.  I have asked our pastor, done the research, and am convinced that the archbishop has every right to determine this posture at that point.

 

Other dioceses may do things differently, and my personal preference is to kneel at that time, but I stand because that's the what we're supposed to do, and it's not that big of a deal.

 

But to some people it is a big deal and some people kneel at that time because it's "more reverent."  My feeling about that is that it's not very reverent to go against the Bishop who says what he says by the authority of Christ.  My reverence is now in my obedience and it would be irreverent for me to do my own thing.

 

There are several ladies at daily Mass who persistently go against the pastor and the bishop, knowing what is required, and in my opinion these women are being very prideful in their reverence, and I don't bother saying anything to them because I know it would be useless and because I don't need to feel their wrath and ruin my day.

 

However, a woman who I have known for over a year and who I have become friends with recently started to kneel at that time, and I'm wondering why and if she's possibly doing it out of ignorance.  She's very involved in the church, so I think she especially sets a bad example and might lead others to follow her error.

 

So I thought I would gently and charitably give her some information about what the archdiocese says and some supporting material from apologists such as Jimmy Aiken.

 

Is there anything wrong with doing that?  I think I'm possibly "instructing the ignorant" and maybe she'll thank me for it.  On the other hand I did recently approach someone who I thought was a good friend, but who had been assuming this posture for a long time, and she got very huffy with me, but this other friend is of a much more humble character.

 

Anyway, what would you do?

[reminiscere]

They have the right to kneel, if they wish (confirmed by the CDW), even if the local Ordinary has asked his Diocese to do otherwise.

Edited January 23, 2014 by reminiscere

[PhuturePriest]

Instructing the ignorant is a spiritual work of mercy. I think she is within her bounds to kneel if it is that important to her, though.

Edited January 23, 2014 by FuturePriest387

[Spem in alium]

I don't see anything wrong with speaking to her, however I wouldn't give information and apologetics straight away (though they would be useful). It seems better that you hear her reasoning first, as that way you'll probably get a better idea of how to respond.

[Pliny]

They have the right to kneel, if they wish (confirmed by the CDW), even if the local Ordinary has asked his Diocese to do otherwise.

Can you quote or link to a supporting document?

[reminiscere]

P.S. I'd like to add that personally I don't see how it's a lay person's place to correct another.

 

If the pastor wants to correct them, then he can. Like I said they can't be forced to stand, so maybe he views speaking to them as a lost cause, or perhaps he feels that their posture doesn't disturb anyone, or he may have some other reason. Maybe it's such a non-issue that he could care less, he hasn't given it a second thought, or it hasn't crossed his mind to speak with/correct them. 

 

If as you said, "it's not that big of a deal" then leave it alone. 

[Pliny]

P.S. I'd like to add that personally I don't see how it's a lay person's place to correct another.

 

If the pastor wants to correct them, then he can. Like I said they can't be forced to stand, so maybe he views speaking to them as a lost cause, or perhaps he feels that their posture doesn't disturb anyone, or he may have some other reason. Maybe it's such a non-issue that he could care less, he hasn't given it a second thought, or it hasn't crossed his mind to speak with/correct them. 

 

If as you said, "it's not that big of a deal" then leave it alone. 

 

No I said it's not a big deal that I don't get to do what I prefer.

 

People who kneel at that time in spite of the Bishop's directive are in rebellion.

 

They can rebel all they like for all I care.  But they set a very bad example.  However, in the case of a friend--I'd like to at least inform her if she's doing it in ignorance.

[reminiscere]

Yep. Read everything carefully. But if you had "done the research" as you said, surely you would've found these, they're among the top results on a Google search. 

 

http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/kneeling_after_the_lamb_of_god.htm

 

"For those who wish to kneel, where the norm is standing, the right to do so has been secured by the Holy See. Please see Kneeling in the Mass." (http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/kneeling.htm)

 

And also:

 

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2011/02/quaeritur-am-i-forbidden-to-kneel-after-the-agnus-dei

 

There are several others, but I think these will suffice. 

 

Can you quote or link to a supporting document?

 

[Pliny]

Instructing the ignorant is a spiritual work of mercy. I think she is within her bounds to kneel if it is that important to her, though.

 

 

What if I want to stand during the Consecration?

 

Or kneel during the entire Mass?

 

What if that is important to me?

[reminiscere]

Then leave them alone if you don't care. 

 

That's all we need, another self-appointed member of the infamous "liturgical police."

 

I'm also reminded of the joke:

 

"What's the difference between a liturgist and a terrorist?" 

"You can negotiate with a terrorist." 

 

Like I said, it falls to the pastor - the one who is immediately responsible for the Sacred Liturgy in his parish - to correct them. No one else. 

 

They can rebel all they like for all I care.

 

[Nihil Obstat]

It would be very inappropriate for you to try to 'correct' the postures of other laypeople.

[Pliny]

Yep. Read everything carefully. But if you had "done the research" as you said, surely you would've found these, they're among the top results on a Google search. 

 

http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/kneeling_after_the_lamb_of_god.htm

 

"For those who wish to kneel, where the norm is standing, the right to do so has been secured by the Holy See. Please see Kneeling in the Mass." (http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/kneeling.htm)

 

And also:

 

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2011/02/quaeritur-am-i-forbidden-to-kneel-after-the-agnus-dei

 

There are several others, but I think these will suffice. 

 

And this is what I got from your first link:

 

43 ... The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.

 

 

Note the last six words please.

[Pliny]

It would be very inappropriate for you to try to 'correct' the postures of other laypeople.

 

 

That's an interesting way to put it but not what I intended.  I'm not going to go up to her and try to raise her to her feet.

 

I intend to provide some information.

What is your basis besides personal opinion that it is inappropriate to say anything to her?

[reminiscere]

Firstly, it is the norm within the universal Latin Church to kneel during the Consecration. In the Eastern Rites they stand throughout the Divine Liturgy (for the most part) because that has always been their tradition.

 

I doubt anyone would really care (or should care) if you did kneel throughout the entire Mass. Actually that was the standard throughout "Low Mass" in what we now know as the Extraordinary Form, although in some places in more modern times they sat from the Offertory until the Sanctus.

 

No one should care what others are doing at Mass, as long as they are reverent and not disrupting the Holy Sacrifice. How recollected or attentive are you (or trying to be anyway?) during Mass, if you're focused on what others are doing? As St. Benedict says in his Rule: "Let us therefore consider how we are to conduct ourselves in the sight of God and of His Angels..." 

 

I am sure that they are kneeling in good faith. They are following a common, ancient tradition which is permitted them by Rome... it's not some modern liturgical abuse. 

 

What if I want to stand during the Consecration?

 

Or kneel during the entire Mass?

 

What if that is important to me?

 

[Pliny]

Then leave them alone if you don't care. 

 

That's all we need, another self-appointed member of the infamous "liturgical police."

 

I'm also reminded of the joke:

 

"What's the difference between a liturgist and a terrorist?" 

"You can negotiate with a terrorist." 

 

Like I said, it falls to the pastor - the one who is immediately responsible for the Sacred Liturgy in his parish - to correct them. No one else. 

 

And by what authority do you make the statement in your last paragraph?  Who says we can't correct each other?  I want to be corrected if I'm doing something wrong.  So what if it comes from a lay person?