Pope Francis And Latin Mass?

[TheLordsSouljah]

(Sorry, wasn't quite sure where to post this, it's not meant to be a debate, but anyway....)

 

I guess it was gonna come up some time. What's the deal with Pope Francis and the TLM 'ban' or 'crackdown' or whatever it is (I really have no idea with conflicting sources) with the Franciscan friars of the Immaculate??? I'm really confused, does anyone actually have a good source? Because he recently celebrated Mass ad orientem as they do with TLM, so I guess in one sense or another is kinda supporting it. 

 

I'm just wondering because I've had some friends using this 'ban' as ammo to fire at Pope Francis for being the antiChrist and all other kinds of silly nonsense. I just want a clear picture if anyone can find one. Help would be appreciated!! :)

[An Historian]

Pope Francis is not an anti-Christ but that does not mean he is sympathetic to the traditional liturgy either.  He wont revoke Summorum Pontificum or its Instruction.  But he wont be very very friendly towards the traditional Mass.  Think oh him as a simple parish priest except on a larger scale.  That's how he conducts himself.  So how does your average Roman priest react to the Extraordinary Form?

He'll leave us alone in our corner.

 

Regarding celebrating Mass ad orientam do not read too much into it.  It wasn't by choice.  It's the only way to celebrate Mass at that altar.

 

And simply pray for the FFI.  They want it kept "in house" and for now respect their wishes.  We'll have the truth of the matter eventually.

[KnightofChrist]

I do not understand why there has been such a massive crackdown of the FFI. By all accounts they seem to have been completely faithful to the Faith, pre and post VII. While other groups, a very long line of other groups, who are not faithful to the Faith at all, are so far free from such crackdowns.

[NotreDame]

That's a good question that I ask myself often.

 

I know he didn't like the LTM or traditionalists in Argentina and neither did they like him.    I also know there are a lot more sects in Argentina than we see here in the USA, but the worst of these sects along the lines of the Legion of Christ, where they are "orthodox" in a fashion, but not traddies by any means.  Based on what I've heard him say, I think he was talking about these novus ordo groups when he was using the term "pelagian."

 

My hypothesis is that he just paints with a broad brush and throws traddies in with the pelagian groups, when most really don't belong there, but that's just a guess.

[TheresaThoma]

There was a thread about this in VS a while back http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/132386-from-the-associated-press/#.Uta80J5dUrU

The article provides a good balanced view with actual quotes from the Apostolic Commissioner and not all the hype and buzz words.

http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Item/2788/hype_and_hope_for_the_ffi.aspx#.Uta-6J5dUrU

The Latin Mass issue has received a lot of media hype but it appears that there are other issues along with it. It also appears that the friars themselves asked for help in sorting the issues out. It has also been made clear that neither the community nor the Apostolic Commissioner want to share any details about the issues and what is being done to resolve them. All we can do is pray.

The press wants to make this an issue about how Pope Francis doesn't like the Latin Mass but really I think the issues are more complex than that. Many new communities go through some "growing pains" (think of orders that we now think are respectable like the Dominicans and Franciscans) and hopefully this is just part of that and the community will be made stronger by this trial.

 

Edit links didn't show up

Edited January 15, 2014 by TheresaThoma

[KnightofChrist]

That article is not well balanced, at all... it seems to have a rather mocking and marginalizing tone from the very first sentence against those that would disagree with the author of the article. As always there is always more than one side of the story, here is another side, with various articles, that goes far more in depth and corrects many of the mistakes or errors made by the CWR reporter.

 

Also I'm not sure the Pope is really aware of what is happening to the FFI, it's hard for me to think he does and would allow it to continue. To me he doesn't seem to be that type of person or Pope.

[Mary+Immaculate<3]

Disclaimer: I am in no way trying to put anybody out, I'm just trying to add to this discussion.

     In some TLM communities people have been hurt because they were harshly judged about miniscule and petty issues. This doesn't just apply to during Mass. Some people felt they were being judged because of the way they dressed or what they did or didn't choose to wear on their head. I'm in no way saying this is true for all or even most TLM parishes. However, I sometimes go to a traditional church with ad orientem NO and TLM, where my family has gone for years. A few years ago my brothers made some minor mistakes while serving a NO Mass, and at least one person called and complained to the pastor that they were "distracted" because of it. I found that very off putting. There have been other similar incideces.

     My point is that Pope Francis seems like someone (like me) who thinks, "Why do people even care about such insignificant things?" Just because someone doesn't have a headcover on or makes a few mistakes serving doesn't mean they are worse Catholics. The TLM, though more reverent and focused, is not better than the NO. He doesn't want to emphasize the pomp more than the Person, because Christ becomes present at every Liturgy of the Eucharist.

     Once again, I believe that people renewing the TLM is wonderful, especially if it helps them to become holier that way. I also think a lot of the traditional Catholics are the ones motivated to do good for the church. To me it seems Pope Francis isn't opposed to those who love the Latin Mass, but rather those who are too critical and caught up in the details. I don't wish to ruffle feathers here, just adding my two cents :)

God bless.

 

[Nihil Obstat]

Disclaimer: I am in no way trying to put anybody out, I'm just trying to add to this discussion.

     In some Traditional Latin Mass communities people have been hurt because they were harshly judged about miniscule and petty issues. This doesn't just apply to during Mass. Some people felt they were being judged because of the way they dressed or what they did or didn't choose to wear on their head. I'm in no way saying this is true for all or even most Traditional Latin Mass parishes. However, I sometimes go to a traditional church with ad orientem NO and Traditional Latin Mass, where my family has gone for years. A few years ago my brothers made some minor mistakes while serving a NO Mass, and at least one person called and complained to the pastor that they were "distracted" because of it. I found that very off putting. There have been other similar incideces.

     My point is that Pope Francis seems like someone (like me) who thinks, "Why do people even care about such insignificant things?" Just because someone doesn't have a headcover on or makes a few mistakes serving doesn't mean they are worse Catholics. The Traditional Latin Mass, though more reverent and focused, is not better than the NO. He doesn't want to emphasize the pomp more than the Person, because Christ becomes present at every Liturgy of the Eucharist.

     Once again, I believe that people renewing the Traditional Latin Mass is wonderful, especially if it helps them to become holier that way. I also think a lot of the traditional Catholics are the ones motivated to do good for the church. To me it seems Pope Francis isn't opposed to those who love the Latin Mass, but rather those who are too critical and caught up in the details. I don't wish to ruffle feathers here, just adding my two cents :)

God bless.

We should be careful not to confuse issues here. The FFI visitation is, according to all parties, not related to parish life or parish environments.

[TheresaThoma]

Read through the whole article. The CWR reporter was making fun of the overhyped and sensationalized articles about the situation. If you read the associated press article you would see what they meant. The AP article screams sensational and trying to "stir the pot". 

I think the biggest thing here is that we don't have all the information about what is going on and thus should not be jumping to conclusions. Very little is being given to the press and all groups are trying to put their own angle on it. I respect that the community is not sharing much, think of it like a married couple going through issues and seeking counseling. They wouldn't be sharing all the details with everyone they know. The might share that they are having issues and ask for prayers but not the details. I think this is a similar situation, the community is obviously having issues and have sought help/counseling and the best thing for them right now is to not be sharing all the details.

Pray for them.

[KnightofChrist]

Read through the whole article. The CWR reporter was making fun of the overhyped and sensationalized articles about the situation. If you read the associated press article you would see what they meant. The AP article screams sensational and trying to "stir the pot". 

I think the biggest thing here is that we don't have all the information about what is going on and thus should not be jumping to conclusions. Very little is being given to the press and all groups are trying to put their own angle on it. I respect that the community is not sharing much, think of it like a married couple going through issues and seeking counseling. They wouldn't be sharing all the details with everyone they know. The might share that they are having issues and ask for prayers but not the details. I think this is a similar situation, the community is obviously having issues and have sought help/counseling and the best thing for them right now is to not be sharing all the details.

Pray for them.

 

I read the article and I don't believe it is very fair, accurate or balanced, and it is just a bit misleading...
 

In the future I would hope that the Mass in one form wouldn't be denied to a group as some form of punishment (for the lack of a better word) and other form be forced (for the lack of a better word) on a group. The Mass shouldn't be used like that, the Mass is the Mass as the saying goes, Priests and laymen should be free to have both, as it's a right that Summorum Pontificum should guarantee.  There are other ways, better ways, to bring order to chaos, without using the Mass to do so. I wouldn't want an order or society that has a spiritual connection to the Ordinary Form to be forced to celebrate the Extraordinary Form exclusively, and it should not be so the other way round either.

Edited January 15, 2014 by KnightofChrist

[An Historian]

The Latin Mass issue has received a lot of media hype but it appears that there are other issues along with it. It also appears that the friars themselves asked for help in sorting the issues out. It has also been made clear that neither the community nor the Apostolic Commissioner want to share any details about the issues and what is being done to resolve them. All we can do is pray.

The press wants to make this an issue about how Pope Francis doesn't like the Latin Mass but really I think the issues are more complex than that. Many new communities go through some "growing pains" (think of orders that we now think are respectable like the Dominicans and Franciscans) and hopefully this is just part of that and the community will be made stronger by this trial.

 

30 of the 33 FFI Latin Mass centres in Italy have been suppressed.  The visitation was requested by a small minority of liberal and moderist friars.  And it is rather vulgar that a Franciscan was put in charge of the visitation.  It would have been more more appropriate to send a Dominican or a Carmelite.

[An Historian]

Disclaimer: I am in no way trying to put anybody out, I'm just trying to add to this discussion.

     In some Traditional Latin Mass communities people have been hurt because they were harshly judged about miniscule and petty issues. This doesn't just apply to during Mass. Some people felt they were being judged because of the way they dressed or what they did or didn't choose to wear on their head. I'm in no way saying this is true for all or even most Traditional Latin Mass parishes. However, I sometimes go to a traditional church with ad orientem NO and Traditional Latin Mass, where my family has gone for years. A few years ago my brothers made some minor mistakes while serving a NO Mass, and at least one person called and complained to the pastor that they were "distracted" because of it. I found that very off putting. There have been other similar incideces.

     My point is that Pope Francis seems like someone (like me) who thinks, "Why do people even care about such insignificant things?" Just because someone doesn't have a headcover on or makes a few mistakes serving doesn't mean they are worse Catholics. The Traditional Latin Mass, though more reverent and focused, is not better than the NO. He doesn't want to emphasize the pomp more than the Person, because Christ becomes present at every Liturgy of the Eucharist.

     Once again, I believe that people renewing the Traditional Latin Mass is wonderful, especially if it helps them to become holier that way. I also think a lot of the traditional Catholics are the ones motivated to do good for the church. To me it seems Pope Francis isn't opposed to those who love the Latin Mass, but rather those who are too critical and caught up in the details. I don't wish to ruffle feathers here, just adding my two cents :)

God bless.

 

Hm.  Very well.  Then I gladly await for the visitation ordered by the Holy Father to every diocese in the world and all religious orders that have parochial ministries. :) After all judegementalism is not the sole preserve of the TLM crowd!  I am confident that the Holy Father will  enact all measures against our diocese that he has enacted against the FFI. :)

 

Maybe the Ordinary Form will be replaced by the EF as punishment in Washington or New York?

[mortify ii]

A troublesome situation. Rotate et celi blog has a lot on this topic. Why other orders with flagrantly contrary liturgies are not targeted with such draconian treatment is beyond me. Perhaps the FFI were simply too effective in their implementation of tradition and this was taken with great alarm.

[mortify ii]

I believe their 80 something year old superior was banished to god knows where. Must be an extraordinary exercise of virtue to be a friar in their order.

[KnightofChrist]

It is very sad, I had hoped to seriously consider joining their seminary, if I can ever get out of debt and other issues. But now with it being forcibly closed that is not an option. Perhaps traditional Catholics are held to some higher standard, because I cannot recall the seminaries of the Legionaries of Christ being shutdown in any similar manner.

Prayers for the Friars and their lost seminarians.