God's Will

[Julie de Sales]

How do we know if in a specific situation the way things evolved (for the worse) was God's will or the effect of our own bad actions? Let's say that I really wanted a job and applied but didn't got it, how do I know that it was the will of God and not my fault, because, maybe, I wasn't good at the interview, or I'm not sufficiently skilled in that domain, etc. Or, for example, if I marry a guy and then I realise it's not a good husband for me, can I say that God permitted this to happend or, on the contrary, it's my fault for not having searched long enough, or didn't discerned properly before marriage?

 

I hope it's not too vague what I said...the main point is that when something doesn't work out, we can find consolation in the will of God, saying that He wanted/permitted this or that to happen for our sanctification maybe. But if it was my mistake, I can't think this way anymore, don't I?

[NotreDame]

When you find out, let me know!

[SilentJoy]

I wonder if it is God's will in the sense that He may be using a 'failed test' to help you to see yourself? It was good that you tried, and good that you 'failed' and now you know a little more about your heart and capacities?

[cmaD2006]

Well it may not be per se what God wanted ... i.e. maybe you needed to prepare better, but it was what God allowed.

 

Rom 8:28 ... God uses all things for the good of those who love Him.  That is -- even when He allows a trial, or bad things to happen, He will bring good forth from it.

 

It's a hard topic to discuss because both concepts of free will and God's will are intertwined.  God will not override our free will, so He allows us to do what we want ... and brings good out of that.  It may not be obvious at first and may take a bit to see how He works it all out, but He does in the long run.

[Golden Years]

I believe that as long as we try our best, and place the outcome in God's hands, then no matter what happens it will be for the good.  Even if objectively speaking the outcome is negative (you didn't get the job, you are behind on your bills), as long as we offer up the suffering we experience (humiliation, frustration, poverty) we are still doing God's will and cooperating with His grace.

[Freedom]

Perhaps not getting the job by making a mistake is the will of God; you were God's personal tool in messing things up in order to fulfill His will.  So you should be proud of yourself in assisting to do His divine intention ;)

[arfink]

I have always found it frustrating when people say "it's God's will" about anything and everything after it's happened. It just seems intellectually lazy to say "Well, I don't know why this happened, so I'm going to blame it on God because otherwise my head will probably explode." It's a very cheap consolation, and one which can eventually train your spirit into believing that God has only bad things planned for you.

 

Figuring out what was actively willed by God takes a lot more work than that. Read from St. Ignatious' rules for the discernment of spirits (which you can find in his Spiritual Exercises) and you will begin to get a grasp of how this works. I don't really have the energy or inclination at this time to write up a very lengthy post about all of it right now, unfortunately. Maybe another night when I'm not running on 5 hours of sleep. :P

Edited January 9, 2014 by arfink

[Belongs2Jesus]

Along with GY's comments:

 

"I believe that as long as we try our best, and place the outcome in God's hands, then no matter what happens it will be for the good.  Even if objectively speaking the outcome is negative (you didn't get the job, you are behind on your bills), as long as we offer up the suffering we experience (humiliation, frustration, poverty) we are still doing God's will and cooperating with His grace."

 

If I remember correctly, St. Therese took this approach.  She offered to God all of her sufferings, even those that she believed were the result of her own weaknesses and failings.  She knew that God would accept it (her suffering) regardless of the circumstances in which it occurred.  That has always been a great source of comfort for me.  I realize that it doesn't answer your question, JdS.  But, for whatever it's worth, I've asked a number of learned and holy priests that same question over the years, and they all responded as Notre Dame did, verbatim!    :sad:

[Belongs2Jesus]

ARF - THANK YOU, I just posted my comments when I read YOURS!  Yes, Yes, Yes!  I have had those same thoughts when people project all the negative that happens on God's Will - which, as you said, can distort our view of God and His Will for us.  So THANK YOU for your words of wisdom!

[BarbTherese]

How Can I know God's Will http://rcspiritualdirection.com/blog/2011/06/20/how-can-i-know-the-will-of-god-in-my-life-part-i-of-ii  (God's Direct or Indicative and His Permissive Will)

 

St Ignatius did write much about discerning spirits and influence of the evil spirit in what happens to us.  That God has permitted it to occur is not an invitation to passivity - the very good God brings out of something He has permitted might be our efforts to overcome, or indeed our humble acceptance which does not of necessity mean that one does not struggle to overcome. 

 

Catholic Catechism:

313 "We know that in everything God works for good for those who love him."¹⁸⁰ The constant witness of the saints confirms this truth:

St. Catherine of Siena said to "those who are scandalized and rebel against what happens to them": "Everything comes from love, all is ordained for the salvation of man, God does nothing without this goal in mind."¹⁸¹

St. Thomas More, shortly before his martyrdom, consoled his daughter: "Nothing can come but that that God wills. And I make me very sure that whatsoever that be, seem it never so bad in sight, it shall indeed be the best."¹⁸²

Dame Julian of Norwich: "Here I was taught by the grace of God that I should steadfastly keep me in the faith. . . and that at the same time I should take my stand on and earnestly believe in what our Lord shewed in this time - that 'all manner [of] thing shall be well.'"¹⁸³

 

^{___________________________________}

 

 

 

Edited January 9, 2014 by BarbaraTherese

[cmaD2006]

I have had those same thoughts when people project all the negative that happens on God's Will - which, as you said, can distort our view of God and His Will for us. 

 

I have a hard time thinking that it was God's will when something negative (that has a lot of sinful stuff associated) happens.

 

Examples:  genocide, abortion, rape (etc). 

 

To me -- God may have allowed it ... again because humans have free will ... but that does not mean it was His will. 

 

His will (the only thing I can say for sure) is that He desires that all men and women be saved.  But even He can't just "will" it ... and each person has to individually consent.

 

Hope I'm making sense.  I'm ok with saying "God allows it and will use it for a person's eventual good" but I seriously can't say that something bad *is* God's will.  Shoot -- I even wrote a whole Theology paper on the concept of God suffering along with us ... and that is more like what I think God is.  I would think that when something akin to what I gave as examples happens to us, He cries along with us.  Not "I willed it because it will be best for you."

 

And finally -- yes as God He could have stopped the bad from happening, but unluckily by doing so He removes free will, so alas He cannot.  He can, however, *try* to convince us (via our conscience) to do right and avoid the pain that sin causes not only to ourselves but to others around us.

[Freedom]

I have always found it frustrating when people say "it's God's will" about anything and everything after it's happened. It just seems intellectually lazy to say...

 

Figuring out what was actively willed by God takes a lot more work than that. Read from St. Ignatious' rules for the discernment of spirits (which you can find in his Spiritual Exercises) and you will begin to get a grasp of how this works. I don't really have the energy or inclination at this time to write up a very lengthy post about all of it right now, unfortunately. Maybe another night when I'm not running on 5 hours of sleep. :P

 fink… it's God's will.  Apparently I just insulted myself  :|

 

Copy and paste always works for me!

[BarbTherese]

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06612a.htm 
 

"God necessarilylovesHimself, who is the Supreme Good, and cannot wish anything that would be opposed to Himself. Yet He permits the sins of creatures, and it has always been considered one of the gravest problems of theism to explain why this is so. We cannot enter on the Problem here, but must content ourselves with a few briefobservations.
..............edit...................
There is no need to delay in discussing mere physical as distinct from moralevil, and it is enough to remark that such evil is not merely permitted, but willed by God, not indeed in its characteras evil, but as being, in such a universe as the present, a means towards goodand in itself relatively good."

 
When something adverse (Permissive Will of God) comes along, it can be quite intellectually and spiritually lazy to be quite passive stating "It is God's Will" for in allowing the adversity God may be calling to work towards, even effect, some good for which the adverse situation has created the opportunity in some way.
When God's Direct (as apposed to Permissive) Will indicates some good, then we are called to take up that good.
In both instances (Permissive and the Direct Will of God) there is cause for thanksgiving and Joy, Peace, since as the CCC states "For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself." ^{(see #311 below).}  These spiritual dispositions are products of responses to God's Direct or His Permissive Will - not of necessity end purposes.

 

Catholic Catechism:
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p4.htm#324
 

311 Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray. Indeed, they have sinned. Thus has moral evil, incommensurably more harmful than physical evil, entered the world. God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil.¹⁷⁶ He permits it, however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it:
 


For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.¹⁷⁷

312 In time we can discover that God in his almighty providence can bring a good from the consequences of an evil, even a moral evil, caused by his creatures: "It was not you", said Joseph to his brothers, "who sent me here, but God. . . You meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive."¹⁷⁸ From the greatest moral evil ever committed - the rejection and murder of God's only Son, caused by the sins of all men - God, by his grace that "abounded all the more",¹⁷⁹ brought the greatest of goods: the glorification of Christ and our redemption. But for all that, evil never becomes a good.

 
 
For a longer read on the subject, go to : "Most Theological Collection - Chapter 11 Following After The Cross with Mary"  http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/most/getchap.cfm?WorkNum=198&ChapNum=11

[cruciatacara]

How do we know if in a specific situation the way things evolved (for the worse) was God's will or the effect of our own bad actions? Let's say that I really wanted a job and applied but didn't got it, how do I know that it was the will of God and not my fault, because, maybe, I wasn't good at the interview, or I'm not sufficiently skilled in that domain, etc. Or, for example, if I marry a guy and then I realise it's not a good husband for me, can I say that God permitted this to happend or, on the contrary, it's my fault for not having searched long enough, or didn't discerned properly before marriage?

 

I hope it's not too vague what I said...the main point is that when something doesn't work out, we can find consolation in the will of God, saying that He wanted/permitted this or that to happen for our sanctification maybe. But if it was my mistake, I can't think this way anymore, don't I?

 

Look, if you're loving God and doing the best you can, why not leave the rest up to him? We all know that 'God's ways are not your ways.' and that we can't possibly understand the mind of God, but we often try to figure out just what it is that He wants/wills for us.

 

These are first world problems big time and there are far worse things happening in the world. There are places where babies are dying of malaria or starving to death, good people are having bad things done to them and evil despots are getting their own way and causing suffering to others. We can't possibly figure it all out. Once we start down the road of why does God allow this to happen or is this His will, it just gets too complicated.

 

God's will is that we should love Him and love each other. All the other things that we do in our lives is just part of this overall picture. Sometimes things will go right for us and sometimes they won't. But God is still there, loving us and wanting us to love Him.

 

Mistakes are part of being a human being - if we were perfect, would we even need God? Just do your best, deal with the results and move on. If you are just looking for consolation for bad things that happen to you - then we can't do any better than to look at Jesus - a guy who loved and did kind things but was vilified and tortured and then crucified. By accepting His own suffering, He showed us that suffering is as much a part of life as joy is. Sometimes we cause our own suffering, sometimes others cause it, but no one is going to get through this life without making mistakes or experiencing suffering - just as we are all going to die in time -- it's inevitable. Best make your peace with it.

 

 

[BarbTherese]

Look, if you're loving God and doing the best you can, why not leave the rest up to him? We all know that 'God's ways are not your ways.' and that we can't possibly understand the mind of God, but we often try to figure out just what it is that He wants/wills for us.

 

These are first world problems big time and there are far worse things happening in the world. There are places where babies are dying of malaria or starving to death, good people are having bad things done to them and evil despots are getting their own way and causing suffering to others. We can't possibly figure it all out. Once we start down the road of why does God allow this to happen or is this His will, it just gets too complicated.

 

God's will is that we should love Him and love each other. All the other things that we do in our lives is just part of this overall picture. Sometimes things will go right for us and sometimes they won't. But God is still there, loving us and wanting us to love Him.

 

Mistakes are part of being a human being - if we were perfect, would we even need God? Just do your best, deal with the results and move on. If you are just looking for consolation for bad things that happen to you - then we can't do any better than to look at Jesus - a guy who loved and did kind things but was vilified and tortured and then crucified. By accepting His own suffering, He showed us that suffering is as much a part of life as joy is. Sometimes we cause our own suffering, sometimes others cause it, but no one is going to get through this life without making mistakes or experiencing suffering - just as we are all going to die in time -- it's inevitable. Best make your peace with it.

 

Very well stated indeed and in easily understood terms.  Thank you very much, cruciatacara, for sharing your thoughts............Barb :)