Love The Sinner...

[NotreDame]

If you will notice in my previous post, I did not simply say ‘your statements are conjecture’ in relation as to why Apostle Paul approved for expulsion of this wicked person because, I gave that particular verse showing you the reason of Apostle Paul himself.

 

You gave a verse, but that verse did not include the information on the individual or what he was doing that should necessitate him being kicked out.  Indeed, St Paul himself was quoting scripture when he wrote "expel the wicked."  There's nothing in the chapter to indicate individuals should be expelled simply because they are sinners.  If you read that verse closely you'll see that. 

 

You can also read some of the commentary below. 

 

1 Corinthians 5:9-13 explained here for your sir.

 

It also helps to read the whole chapter to get context (which I'm sure you've read, Reyb, but for the sake of those who haven't.)

[reyb]

You gave a verse, but that verse did not include the information on the individual or what he was doing that should necessitate him being kicked out.  Indeed, St Paul himself was quoting scripture when he wrote "expel the wicked."  There's nothing in the chapter to indicate individuals should be expelled simply because they are sinners.  If you read that verse closely you'll see that. 

 

You can also read some of the commentary below. 

 

I really do understand your reasons and sentiment in keeping ‘immoral’ brothers  in your Church. But  don’t you realized that you are being tested and failing since you are insisting in a principle which is against the instruction of Apostle Paul?

 

Thank you for posting that book. I will read it.

[reyb]

Why I Love the Sinner and Hate the Sin

I recently read an article on Huffington Post entitled “Why I Can’t Say ‘Love the Sinner/Hate the Sin’ Anymore.” The author, Micah Murray, is obviously a very caring individual, and I understand where he is coming from. He hates the idea that we would see gays – or anyone – as someone substandard, someone who is “other” to us, or less than us because of their sin. He points to a fundamental Christian reality – that people are people and he rightly resents the idea that people would be defined by a sin, rather than by who they are as individuals.

I agree. It would be a horrible thing if the world were split into groups of people who saw one another as less simply because of a sin that they commit. Indeed, only God can judge the worth of a man. Should one person attempt to tell another man that he is less, then the first man is really the one guilty of such stature.

Yet, in denying the saying “love the sinner, hate the sin” Mr. Murray has committed the other crime of this saying. “Love the sinner, hate the sin” has now become “love the sinner, love the sin.” This is also incorrect, and frankly, quite dangerous and even hypocritical.

The saying “love the sinner, hate the sin” isn’t just a catchy Christian catchphrase that we rattle off passive-aggressively at those who need to “shape up!” No, this saying attempts to capture, to point at, the fundamental mystery of the Christian life: that in dying to our sin, we rise again to a greater self, that in love we conquer death, and that we can only love sinners because we hate their sin.

This saying is not an invitation to view ourselves as better than others, but rather a recognition that as people we are all sinners, struggling to deal with the painful effects of original sin. Moreover, it is a generous and loving phrase, one that says “in our humanity, love one another, and hate the sin that weighs one another down.” Truly, at its core, this saying opens our eyes to the human condition from which we all suffer. Thus, to say “love the sinner, hate the sin,” is a recognition that we are all sinners, and, therefore that we are all in need of love because we are all sinners.

Indeed, we hate the sin because we love the sinner. The saying “love the sinner, hate the sin” is a true practice of the very act Mr. Murray asks of all of us: to love one another, not to judge as we are all sinners, not to be hypocritical because we all suffer from some short coming, from some sin, from some element of our human existence. Yet Mr. Murray, in his compassion, has given in to the progressive notion that true love is manifested in the act of allowing others to do whatever they want in the name of “happiness,” rather than denying ourselves out of an honest pursuit of joy. Christians, however, understand this dichotomy: that in denial we have abundance and in practicing rules we have true freedom. Thus, we hate the sin because of the pain and evil it unleashes in the sinner’s life, because of the shackles it places around the sinner which prevent him from attaining the true joy which freedom from sin brings.

Indeed, it is more loving to hate something that causes another pain, more loving to desire goodness, health, beauty, and joy for someone, more loving to resent an action that causes another harm than allow someone to continue down a path of self destruction.

Thus, for Christians, to love the sinner is to hate the sin. Yet, because we are all sinners, to love the sinner is to love all and to love all involves the righteous hatred of all sin that holds us hostage in this life.

“Love the sinner, hate the sin” is not judgmental; it is not harsh; it is not reserved for “special sinners.” It is a saying that captures the pain of human existence and challenges all people to rise to the demands of true love. It is a saying that elevates us in our humanity so that we are not our sin, and so that we are not defined by our weaknesses and struggles. It is a saying that allows us to be defined by the love of the Father, who consistently pours out his graces on us in His love so that we as sinners may sin no more.
- See more at: http://www.ignitumtoday.com/2014/01/03/why-i-love-the-sinner-and-hate-the-sin/#sthash.cdyf7h6K.dpuf

 

Therefore, you are practically saying. it is not a correct thing to expel them from the Church. 

Edited January 8, 2014 by reyb

[NotreDame]

I really do understand your reasons and sentiment in keeping ‘immoral’ brothers  in your Church. But  don’t you realized that you are being tested and failing since you are insisting in a principle which is against the instruction of Apostle Paul?

 

Thank you for posting that book. I will read it.

 

I can tell by your response that you don't exactly understand the chapter or what St Paul was quoting (for he was quoting the old testament in case you didn't already know.)  Go read St John Chrysostom's commentary on the google books link that I shared.  He will explain more.

[Clare Brigid]

Reyb, have you read Our Lord's parable of the wheat and the weeds?

[Socrates]

We must never, ever use any words or phrases which might possibly upset anyone anywhere.

 

Instead, we should be like Jesus, whose words never upset anybody.

 

 

 

 

Oh, wait . . . 

Edited January 8, 2014 by Socrates

[Socrates]

Many times, I confess in this forum that I was once a Catholic and never become a Protestant. Today, I do not belong to any religious organization in whatever kind of denomination known to you. (meaning, I belong to a particular Church which is still hidden from you)

 

I will explain it further some other time. 

 

Totally gnarly, dude.

[cappie]

We must never, ever use any words or phrases which might possibly upset anyone anywhere.

 

Instead, we should be like Jesus, whose words never upset anybody.

 

 

 

 

Oh, wait . . . 

 

[Luigi]

That certainly doesn't feel all sweet and loving and caring and accepting and warm-fuzzy to me. I think this young man may need a time out!

[reyb]

Let me post our subject topic for our easy reference.

 

1 Corinthians Chapter 5

 

It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

 

Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast — as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.

 

I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

 

 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."  

[reyb]

You gave a verse, but that verse did not include the information on the individual or what he was doing that should necessitate him being kicked out.  Indeed, St Paul himself was quoting scripture when he wrote "expel the wicked."  There's nothing in the chapter to indicate individuals should be expelled simply because they are sinners.  If you read that verse closely you'll see that. 

 

You can also read some of the commentary below. 

 

Yes, Apostle Paul is quoting ‘Expel the wicked man from among you’ from the old scripture, and the sin he committed was given ,‘ A man has his father's wife’.

 

Now, if what you are saying is...I did not give or post these verses showing this ‘information’...it is because, I do expect you that you will read the scripture yourself.  

Edited January 8, 2014 by reyb

[reyb]

ND This is the Commentary of John Chrysostom in relation to our subject. This is from that book.

 

 

Drive out the wicked person from among you: Paul mentions a verse from the Old testament to show two things: first, that the Corinthians will reap substantial benefit  from this, as if they were delivered from a terrible plaque; and second that this is not an innovation, but that from the beginning the giver of the law thought it good that such people should be cut off. In the Old testament this was done with greater severity; here, however there is milder way....There the adulterer and the murderer are immediately put to death, whereas here, if they are cleansed through repentance, they escape punishment in the Old milder ones, which shows that throughout  the two covenants are closely related to each other and come from the same lawgiver. And in both testaments one sometimes sees punishment that are immediate, but at other times the punishments come long afterward. And often they do not occur at all, even long afterward. If God is satisfied with repentance alone. And in fact in the Old testament David after committing and murder, was saved through repentance (see 2 Samuel 12), but  in the New Testament Ananias perished with his wife because he kept back a small portion of the price of the field (Acts 51:11).

------------------------------------------

He is practically saying that this ‘expulsion’ is a milder way of punishment than that of the Old ‘death in the hands of witnesses and all people’ for an offender.

 

But the question is this: Did they do it ? (expulsions of these offenders from your Church since this is the instruction of Apostle Paul). It seems Chrysostom himself was convinced that they did not do it because he said ‘but at other times the punishments come long afterward. And often they do not occur at all, even long afterward’.

 

The condition in treating immorals are the same even today. You do not ‘expel’ them but guide them. As I have said, I have nothing against gays and cheaters, I am simply telling you the reality happening in your Church that you are not listening to Apostle Paul because you have different way of 'saving' a wicked person.

 

To them (from where Apostle Paul belong) they 'kick him out' (1 Cor 5:5) 'so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. But from your end (Your Church way), you keep, guide and teach them to repent in order to become obedient to your doctrines.  

 

 

 

 

Edited January 8, 2014 by reyb

[reyb]

Reyb, have you read Our Lord's parable of the wheat and the weeds?

 

if this day is not yet the day of harvest, how can you be sure that I am the weed and you are the wheat?

 

Okay let me put it this way.

 

It is written (in Matt 13:44)  "The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field.

 

Can you tell me why that man ‘hid’ it while in fact he already found it?

Edited January 8, 2014 by reyb

[Clare Brigid]

if this day is not yet the day of harvest, how can you be sure that I am the weed and you are the wheat?

 

It's not about you, Reyb.

 

I'm asking you to consider Our Lord's parable in connection with your insistence that (certain) sinners should always be expelled from the Church.  Our Lord did not seem to think so.  He said it could damage the wheat to pull up all the weeds.

 

Please read that parable again.

 

Don't you think you should return to the Catholic Church?  Without the guidance of the Church, you will continue to get stuck on personal interpretations of isolated verses of Scripture.

[reyb]

It's not about you, Reyb.

 

I'm asking you to consider Our Lord's parable in connection with your insistence that (certain) sinners should always be expelled from the Church.  Our Lord did not seem to think so.  He said it could damage the wheat to pull up all the weeds.

 

Please read that parable again.

 

Don't you think you should return to the Catholic Church?  Without the guidance of the Church, you will continue to get stuck on personal interpretations of isolated verses of Scripture.

 

Thank you for your concern. I really appreciate it. But.....

 

Let me correct you first, I am simply quoting Apostle Paul's instruction 'to expel him '. Although I agree in it because in giving that wicked man to satan thru expulsion in the midst of the holies, he continue living but no longer in his old self since he learn to realize how hard to live in hell. Is it written? Well I am simply telling you that  I learned it from experience too. 

 

Anyway, So are you saying, let the sinners (weeds) and wheat (the chosen) to grow together?. Okay. Let me ask this first, Who are these 'wheats 'in your church since you already said in your previous post,  'If we refused to associate with sinners, no one would be at Mass on Sunday'. To me, you are practically saying all of you are still weeds in one way or another. So again who are these wheats in your Church?

Edited January 8, 2014 by reyb