Penance In Carmel?

[SilentJoy]

If anyone would be willing to share their experiences or insights, I would be very grateful!

 

I have been communicating with two Carmelite communities; it might be helpful to the discussion to mention that one is 1990 and the other is 1991.

 

When I asked about penitential practices, I received very different answers.

 

The 1990 Carmel would not mention anything about corporal mortification; they only said that it was something that I would learn in the novitiate. They also mentioned that there were certain customs within the community that could not be shared, and I am wondering if this relates to penance. I can see how they might want to be sure that I had a good foundation in the meaning and wisdom behind corporal mortification before I began to practice it (with permission), but I found it disturbing that they felt the practice might be too difficult for outsiders, even a devout Catholic applicant, to understand, especially as I already have some clues about what Carmelite penances are like. (I'm a grownup, too. For the most part...ha ha.)

 

The 1991 Carmel was happy to tell me that they felt that the daily life of a Carmelite was "penance enough" and that the Carmelite Fathers requested that they move away from corporal mortifications because it seemed psychologically dangerous and could feed spiritual pride.

 

I'm somewhat confused; I'm not a masochist, but I'm not against corporal penances either. One community seems to think that their practices are too potentially disturbing to reveal to outsiders, and another doesn't recommend them at all.

 

Both views seem slightly extreme. Is there such a thing as a "middle ground" in Carmel?

[graciandelamadrededios]

Let me preface my answer with this, before Vatican II, among Carmels, corporal mortification was required.  I think it was in their Ceremonial or Custom Book.  I remember reading that the Nuns darkened the choir and apply the discipline for a certain length of the recitation of Miserere.  After Vatican II, as recommended by the Council documents, corporal mortifications were discouraged, not outlawed but was recommended that this should be replaced by other form.

 

The 1990 Carmel you have been communicating is right.  This type of custom - the penances - corporal mortifications - cannot be discussed in public.  In the book My Beloved, it was briefly discussed and that was Pre-Vatican II period and even then, it was misunderstood by the public.  This custom was equally placed with the ridiculous of Nuns sleeping in coffins, digging their own graves, etc.  In modern times, the same can still be said, if this will be discussed in public, they will not understand.  But not all 1990 Carmels retained corporal mortifications, some may have replaced them with other forms.

 

The 1991 Carmel is also right, the life in the cloister is penance enough and the OCD Fathers has encourage them to stay away from corporal mortifications, etc.  There are other forms of mortifications such as not eating meat, keeping silence, etc.  There might be some Carmels following the 1990 text that still retains some form of corporal mortifications.

 

It would really depend on each Carmel (1990 or 1991 monasteries) nowadays, how they view and conceive mortifications.  These are normally discussed within the community and needed approval (corporal mortifications) from their respective Superiors.

 

How do you exactly define a middle ground Carmel?

 

 

[graciandelamadrededios]

Mother Mary Francis, P.C.C. commented on penance on her book" A Right to be Merry":

 

Some person apparently believe that perfection is a matter of feats and formulae.  Arm a girl with a discipline and set her running (barefoot, of course) along a racetrack of prayers with evenly spaced hurdles of fasts and vigils, and she is bound to come panting across the finish line as a Poo Clare saint.  Actually, it does not work that way.

Edited January 1, 2014 by graciandelamadrededios

[maximillion]

Actually, I don't see the approach of either of the communities you mention as extreme......

 

They are different communities with different constitutions and without being harsh I think you may be interpreting things.

 

They are two differing views, nothing more and nothing less.

 

If I were discerning and corporal penance was an issue, I think I might take it to mean I was not called to that lifestyle ( I wasn't - one of the reasons I did not enter Carmel!)

Have you discussed this with your SD?

 

The notion of mortification (humiliations, corporal penance) seems to get to you a bit Silentjoy. The thing is, you won't know if you can support the mortifications of Carmel until you get there. I think we sometimes work ourselves into a fever trying to figure something out in advance, rather than trusting to Him. As Anneline has said elsewhere, if He wants you in Carmel nothing on earth will keep you out, and if He doesen't nothing will keep you there.

 

Trust Him, and forget the rest.

Place your hand in His and say 'where You lead', and leave it at that.

 

I know you are trying to make some sort of informed decision, but there also comes a time for just resting in Him and trusting Him to lead you, not your research leading you.

In the end, does it really matter which set of constitutions or which community so long as it is where He wants you to be?

 

I know that is a huge ask.

But that is what He does.

My utmost for His highest.........

 

I am praying that you can come to some peace over this and not be cross questioning yourself.

Please accept my comments in the spirit in which they are intended, not as criticism but out of genuine concern for your peace of mind over your vocation. 

[SilentJoy]

Let me preface my answer with this, before Vatican II, among Carmels, corporal mortification was required.  I think it was in their Ceremonial or Custom Book.  I remember reading that the Nuns darkened the choir and apply the discipline for a certain length of the recitation of Miserere.  After Vatican II, as recommended by the Council documents, corporal mortifications were discouraged, not outlawed but was recommended that this should be replaced by other form. Yes, I have read about this practice as well.

 

The 1990 Carmel you have been communicating is right.  This type of custom - the penances - corporal mortifications - cannot be discussed in public. I guess that this is the part that I don't understand. I can see why they would not advertise to the public, and I think that they do not allow even other Sisters to see the actual penance being done, but I don't know why it is necessary that it should remain a total mystery to someone who is seriously discerning with them.  

 

 In the book My Beloved, it was briefly discussed and that was Pre-Vatican II period and even then, it was misunderstood by the public.  This custom was equally placed with the ridiculous of Nuns sleeping in coffins, digging their own graves, etc.  In modern times, the same can still be said, if this will be discussed in public, they will not understand.  But not all 1990 Carmels retained corporal mortifications, some may have replaced them with other forms.

 

The 1991 Carmel is also right, the life in the cloister is penance enough and the OCD Fathers has encourage them to stay away from corporal mortifications, etc.  There are other forms of mortifications such as not eating meat, keeping silence, etc.  There might be some Carmels following the 1990 text that still retains some form of corporal mortifications.

 

It would really depend on each Carmel (1990 or 1991 monasteries) nowadays, how they view and conceive mortifications.  These are normally discussed within the community and needed approval (corporal mortifications) from their respective Superiors. Yes, it was mentioned that any corporal mortification would need to be done only with permission, and not by a Postulant at all.

 

How do you exactly define a middle ground Carmel? I'm not sure; it just seemed like the answers that I received were on opposite ends of a spectrum.

[SilentJoy]

Actually, I don't see the approach of either of the communities you mention as extreme......"Extreme" was a poor word choice. I didn't mean (or think) that either community was "extremist" at all. I was just trying to describe how different their viewpoints seemed to be.

 

They are different communities with different constitutions and without being harsh I think you may be interpreting things.

 

They are two differing views, nothing more and nothing less.

 

If I were discerning and corporal penance was an issue, I think I might take it to mean I was not called to that lifestyle ( I wasn't - one of the reasons I did not enter Carmel!)

Have you discussed this with your SD?

 

The notion of mortification (humiliations, corporal penance) seems to get to you a bit Silentjoy. I guess it does; I was thinking that I was bothered by the fact that it was customary for them to not reveal information that I had a valid excuse to know, and no major reason not to know (and that I've already guessed at - I've seen Carmelite movies), but possibly I am disturbed by mortification itself. I'm not against it in theory, at least.

 

The thing is, you won't know if you can support the mortifications of Carmel until you get there. I think we sometimes work ourselves into a fever trying to figure something out in advance, rather than trusting to Him. As Anneline has said elsewhere, if He wants you in Carmel nothing on earth will keep you out, and if He doesen't nothing will keep you there.

 

Trust Him, and forget the rest.

Place your hand in His and say 'where You lead', and leave it at that.

 

I know you are trying to make some sort of informed decision, but there also comes a time for just resting in Him and trusting Him to lead you, not your research leading you.

In the end, does it really matter which set of constitutions or which community so long as it is where He wants you to be? No, I just want to be Home.

 

I know that is a huge ask.

But that is what He does.

My utmost for His highest.........

 

I am praying that you can come to some peace over this and not be cross questioning yourself. Thank you!

Please accept my comments in the spirit in which they are intended, not as criticism but out of genuine concern for your peace of mind over your vocation. I thought that your post was reasonable and I wouldn't have suspected any other spirit.

 

[graciandelamadrededios]

 

Let me preface my answer with this, before Vatican II, among Carmels, corporal mortification was required.  I think it was in their Ceremonial or Custom Book.  I remember reading that the Nuns darkened the choir and apply the discipline for a certain length of the recitation of Miserere.  After Vatican II, as recommended by the Council documents, corporal mortifications were discouraged, not outlawed but was recommended that this should be replaced by other form. Yes, I have read about this practice as well.

 

The 1990 Carmel you have been communicating is right.  This type of custom - the penances - corporal mortifications - cannot be discussed in public. I guess that this is the part that I don't understand. I can see why they would not advertise to the public, and I think that they do not allow even other Sisters to see the actual penance being done, but I don't know why it is necessary that it should remain a total mystery to someone who is seriously discerning with them.  

 

 In the book My Beloved, it was briefly discussed and that was Pre-Vatican II period and even then, it was misunderstood by the public.  This custom was equally placed with the ridiculous of Nuns sleeping in coffins, digging their own graves, etc.  In modern times, the same can still be said, if this will be discussed in public, they will not understand.  But not all 1990 Carmels retained corporal mortifications, some may have replaced them with other forms.

 

The 1991 Carmel is also right, the life in the cloister is penance enough and the OCD Fathers has encourage them to stay away from corporal mortifications, etc.  There are other forms of mortifications such as not eating meat, keeping silence, etc.  There might be some Carmels following the 1990 text that still retains some form of corporal mortifications.

 

It would really depend on each Carmel (1990 or 1991 monasteries) nowadays, how they view and conceive mortifications.  These are normally discussed within the community and needed approval (corporal mortifications) from their respective Superiors. Yes, it was mentioned that any corporal mortification would need to be done only with permission, and not by a Postulant at all.

 

How do you exactly define a middle ground Carmel? I'm not sure; it just seemed like the answers that I received were on opposite ends of a spectrum.

 

 

It would be better if you experience them yourself and not by just simply explaining them verbally.

 

There are some things that are better explained through an actual experience.  

 

If these penances bothers you, please discuss it with Mother Prioress of the 1990 Carmel you are discerning with.

 

 

Gracian

[beatitude]

Silentjoy, I get the sense from your post that you are very frightened of becoming a nun and that this is preventing you from trusting either of these communities. Watching Carmelite films is not going to give you an accurate picture of Carmelite life (all communities have their own different flavour and their own customs, and films often sensationalise things for the viewer) and nor is asking questions on the Internet. The only way to find out is to go and see. You are not going to be locked in a convent forever if you try the life as an aspirant for a few weeks (and given your anxiety levels, I think a community that allows a live-in might be good for you, even if you don't end up entering there - you need a taste of monastic life as it's actually lived). The only commitment that you are making is try and follow Jesus more nearly and love him more dearly, day by day, to paraphrase St Richard of Chichester. That's all. No one is going to make you take vows on the spot and lock you up in a convent for life if you so much as express an interest. Jesus' invitation was, "Come and see," not, "Come and be chained into something horrible that you don't want for the rest of your life." So why not go and take a look? :)

[maximillion]

What she ^^^^^^ said.

[SilentJoy]

Silentjoy, I get the sense from your post that you are very frightened of becoming a nun and that this is preventing you from trusting either of these communities. Watching Carmelite films is not going to give you an accurate picture of Carmelite life (all communities have their own different flavour and their own customs, and films often sensationalise things for the viewer) and nor is asking questions on the Internet. The only way to find out is to go and see. You are not going to be locked in a convent forever if you try the life as an aspirant for a few weeks (and given your anxiety levels, I think a community that allows a live-in might be good for you, even if you don't end up entering there - you need a taste of monastic life as it's actually lived). The only commitment that you are making is try and follow Jesus more nearly and love him more dearly, day by day, to paraphrase St Richard of Chichester. That's all. No one is going to make you take vows on the spot and lock you up in a convent for life if you so much as express an interest. Jesus' invitation was, "Come and see," not, "Come and be chained into something horrible that you don't want for the rest of your life." So why not go and take a look? :)

 

I wish the Phorums had a rolling smilie...

 

I figured out that movies about Carmelites aren't very good for discernment AFTER I watched them. Too late! When I mentioned seeing films, I wasn't trying to suggest that I thought these gave accurate descriptions; I was just trying to say that, whatever the reality was, it wasn't likely to surprise me if they chose to describe it, whereas NOT describing something just feeds the anxiety-monster.
 

[SilentJoy]

(I promise this is the last time I will try to explain myself)...

 

I was not afraid of corporal penance, but I became afraid of the community when they chose not to disclose information about it.

 

That is NOT an attack on this particular community; it is only me trying to explain why I don't understand the usefulness of non-disclosure. It was detrimental rather than helpful.

 

Okay, I'm done now.

[Chiquitunga]

Let me preface my answer with this, before Vatican II, among Carmels, corporal mortification was required.  I think it was in their Ceremonial or Custom Book.  I remember reading that the Nuns darkened the choir and apply the discipline for a certain length of the recitation of Miserere.  After Vatican II, as recommended by the Council documents, corporal mortifications were discouraged, not outlawed but was recommended that this should be replaced by other form.

 

Gracian, do you know what particular document from Vatican II says that? (not meaning to be argumentative but am honestly wondering) I don't see anything like that in the VII document on religious life, Perfectae Caritatis. These are the only couple references I could find on mortification and penance.

 

"Religious, therefore, who are striving faithfully to observe the chastity they have professed must have faith in the words of the Lord, and trusting in God's help not overestimate their own strength but practice mortification and custody of the senses."

 

"Communities which are entirely dedicated to contemplation, so that their members in solitude and silence, with constant prayer and penance willingly undertaken, occupy themselves with God alone, retain at all times, no matter how pressing the needs of the active apostolate may be, an honorable place in the Mystical Body of Christ, whose "members do not all have the same function" (Rom. 12:4)."

[Chiquitunga]

Let me preface my answer with this, before Vatican II, among Carmels, corporal mortification was required.  I think it was in their Ceremonial or Custom Book.  I remember reading that the Nuns darkened the choir and apply the discipline for a certain length of the recitation of Miserere. 

 

It's in the Constitutions. I cannot find my copy of the 1990s at the moment, but in the 1926s it's articles 104 and 105. I really like how in article 104 it gives the reasons/many intentions for the good of souls that this is for.

 

In reply to the question in this thread, I will have to come back later to post more. I really agree with maximillion, though at the same time, I think these are good and valid questions. Perhaps they might be discussed best via private messages, so SilentJoy feel free to PM me. God bless for now and Happy New Year and Solemnity of the Mother of God/Circumcision of Our Lord/Octave of Christmas!

Edited January 1, 2014 by Chiquitunga

[NotreDame]

(I promise this is the last time I will try to explain myself)...

 

I was not afraid of corporal penance, but I became afraid of the community when they chose not to disclose information about it.

 

That is NOT an attack on this particular community; it is only me trying to explain why I don't understand the usefulness of non-disclosure. It was detrimental rather than helpful.

 

Okay, I'm done now.

 

Makes perfect sense.  If something is mandatory (and not at the discretion of a spiritual director) then you want to know exactly what it is you are consenting to before you pack up your bags and take off. 

 

They have reasons for not telling you.  You have reasons for wanting to know.  I wouldn't consider it a "warning sign" about the community, but it's valid for you to take this into account.  Now that it's out in the open and you'll just have to see how you feel about that as you discern and pray. 

[graciandelamadrededios]

Gracian, do you know what particular document from Vatican II says that? (not meaning to be argumentative but am honestly wondering) I don't see anything like that in the VII document on religious life, Perfectae Caritatis. These are the only couple references I could find on mortification and penance.

 

"Religious, therefore, who are striving faithfully to observe the chastity they have professed must have faith in the words of the Lord, and trusting in God's help not overestimate their own strength but practice mortification and custody of the senses."

 

"Communities which are entirely dedicated to contemplation, so that their members in solitude and silence, with constant prayer and penance willingly undertaken, occupy themselves with God alone, retain at all times, no matter how pressing the needs of the active apostolate may be, an honorable place in the Mystical Body of Christ, whose "members do not all have the same function" (Rom. 12:4)."

 

 

The Vatican II documents, as majority of those who are well-versed with Church History, are open for interpretation.  So the conservative and liberals apply their own interpretation that best suits them.

 

Please see underlined phrases or sentences.  Operative word that time is adaptation.  So in this sense, adapt the mortification to what is suitable or acceptable to the culture and with the modern times.

 

 

 

DECREE ON
THE ADAPTATION AND RENEWAL OF RELIGIOUS LIFE
PERFECTAE CARITATIS
PROCLAIMED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON OCTOBER 28, 1965

3. The manner of living, praying and working should be suitably adapted everywhere, but especially in mission territories, to the modern physical and psychological circumstances of the members and also, as required by the nature of each institute, to the necessities of the apostolate, the demands of culture, and social and economic circumstances.

 

 

According to the same criteria let the manner of governing the institutes also be examined.

 

Therefore let constitutions, directories, custom books, books of prayers and ceremonies and such like be suitably re-edited and, obsolete laws being suppressed, be adapted to the decrees of this sacred synod.

 

4. An effective renewal and adaptation demands the cooperation of all the members of the institute.

 

However, to establish the norms of adaptation and renewal, to embody it in legislation as well as to make allowance for adequate and prudent experimentation belongs only to the competent authorities, especially to general chapters. The approbation of the Holy See or of the local Ordinary must be obtained where necessary according to law. But superiors should take counsel in an appropriate way and hear the members of the order in those things which concern the future well being of the whole institute.

 

For the adaptation and renewal of convents of nuns suggestions and advice may be obtained also from the meetings of federations or from other assemblies lawfully convoked.

 

Nevertheless everyone should keep in mind that the hope of renewal lies more in the faithful observance of the rules and constitutions than in multiplying laws.

 

9. The monastic life, that venerable institution which in the course of a long history has won for itself notable renown in the Church and in human society, should be preserved with care and its authentic spirit permitted to shine forth ever more splendidly both in the East and the West. The principal duty of monks is to offer a service to the divine majesty at once humble and noble within the walls of the monastery, whether they dedicate themselves entirely to divine worship in the contemplative life or have legitimately undertaken some apostolate or work of Christian charity. Retaining, therefore, the characteristics of the way of life proper to them, they should revive their ancient traditions of service and so adapt them to the needs of today that monasteries will become institutions dedicated to the edification of the Christian people.