Problem Solving Time

[Quietfire]

May the Lord bless this thread to show truth and knowledge. So that we may all be led by the love of God in Christ our Lord. Amen.

I am taking a great risk in making this post. But it has been suggested that I do this to receive input from those with more knowledge than me. My risk is alienation from family, whom I love. Particularly my sister, since it is for her that I have discovered the true faith, which she has turned and walked away from some 20 years ago.

The following questions are in reference to a debate I am involved in on another site. I tread carefully there because I am not an apologist and would not wish to misrepresent the Church. So I come here to ask and learn, and I am grateful, for each and every one of you that has helped me in my search for truth. May God Bless all of you. I am forever in your debt.
*******
What is the original Hebrew name for Jesus Christ and why was it changed to Jesus Christ. *some may remember me asking what the meaning of the word 'sus' means in other languages because there are some who claim that the meaning 'swine' somehow represents Jesus.
The following is the original post that was asked of me to answer. My user name is Ricka(just so you are aware) and the person claims they are not American, but has not given info as to what their nationality is...the language they use is 'laconic mode'

[quote]This word that you do pronounce "je-sus(IE-SVS)" is the original Hebrew Name (with an original phonema/sound)? or a version.

*******Other words [you perhaps can understand - it's your very first linguage]:

This word that you do pronounce "je-sus(IE-SVS)" is THE SAME HEBREW NAME (phonema; or; sound) pronounced by the Apostles?

or;

Is a Another Version (phonema/sound) of the Original Hebrew Name?

********Let us go again, Other words [I don't know, but you perhaps can understand - it's your very first linguage]:

*

This word that you do pronounce "je-sus(IE-SVS)" is THE REALITY?

or;

Is a Greek/Latin Version of the REALITY?

******Again, Other words [I think you perhaps can understand - it's your very first linguage]:

This word that you do pronounce "je-sus(IE-SVS)" is THE REALITY?

or;

Is a Version of the REALITY?

*

*******Soon, in case you do respond my question, tell Ricka, whether the terms "REALITY" and "VERSION OF THE REALITY" have the same meaning or not, according to your point.[/quote]

this person claims she speaks the reality and we the version of the reality. My sis is totally enamored with this person, who I think she believes to be one of the two witnesses in revelation(specifically Isaias) and she spends alot of time on that book, revelation, and daniel. Although this person does not make this claim on any forum.
My sis also emails this person so I am left with not knowing what she is being taught any longer. So I have resorted to 'calling this person out'.

Interestingly enough, this persons user name is Zsafira, or may be called Safira. Today, while reading Acts 5 that I realized that it speaks of a man and his wife who sold a piece of land and kept back a part of the price for themselves, while laying the rest at the feet of the apolstes. They both in turn 'gave up the ghost' and died and were buried. The wifes name is Saphira.

I need info Phamily...and fast.
My questions may seem strange but there is a reason for it.
And trust me, there will be many more questions coming.

I ask for patience, guidance, truth above all else and prayers.


I am sure many now will see the link between this post and some of the 'crazy' questions that I have had in the past.

This person claims it is a "missive war against the false masters, not a war against the flesh." A war against the "vicious vulgatha" and "vatikkann". They also claim that God's name is Gehaveh. These and many more of this persons claims I must address.
There is so much more I wish to say, but this is my first and immediate problem. This is just the beginning.
My sword has been drawn.



Peace.

Edited June 4, 2004 by Quietfire

[Cure of Ars]

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374x.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374x.htm[/url]

Click on the link above. Hope it helps. God bless

[Quietfire]

thank you Cure of Ars and I have already read that.

I guess to clarify, let me start this way. The name(title) Christ is deliberately not being considered here, so please only go by Jesus.

The name of Jesus is english?
What is the Greek translation?
What is the Latin translation?
What is the Hebrew translation?

There are names such as Emmanuel, Yeshua, Yoshua, Yahushua, and others. What is the significance of these names to Jesus.

Why do we call him Jesus as opposed to, say, Emmanuel or Yahushua?
If it is because of a translation, and we are able to pronounce it properly like Emmanuel, then why not use it?
In other words, how did we get Jesus from Emmanuel (if this *Emmanuel* is the english translation of the actual Hebrew name)
I hope that that is a proper clarification. If not, let me know and I will try again.

We can begin with these questions and move on from here.

Thank you.

Peace.

Edited June 5, 2004 by Quietfire

[Quietfire]

Hey Phatcatholic,
I am posting your pm to me on here so that I dont need to keep going back and forth to read it again.

[quote]ok, i'm totally thinking out loud here.

first, lets get our information together...

from this article i found the following on the name "Jehovah":

--At the same time, the divine name was increasingly regarded as too sacred to be uttered; it was thus replaced vocally in the synagogue ritual by the Hebrew word Adonai ("My Lord"), which was translated as Kyrios ("Lord") in the Septuagint, the Greek version of the Old Testament.
--The term Jehovah, is a Erroneous Hybrid form for the divine name which originated in the mistaken idea that the consonants of Tetragrammaton, YHWH (really pronounced "Yahweh"), were to be read with the vowel points found with them in the MT, which really gives the vowels which are to be read with the substituted word ‘dny, (Adonai, "Lord"). The proper vowels for the latter word are a-o-a, but since the first consonant in YHWH is not a guttural, the vowel e is placed under it (to be read after it) instead of the vowel a; thus, by combining these vowels with the consonants of the Tetragrammaton, the mongrel form, "Yehowah," came into being, which with the English consonant j in place of y and with the German pronunciation of w as v, produced in turn the quaint form of "Jehovah."

now, w/ that we also have this, on the name "Jesus Christ":

--The word Jesus is the Latin form of the Greek Iesous, which in turn is the transliteration of the Hebrew Jeshua, or Joshua, or again Jehoshua, meaning "Jehovah is salvation."
--The word Christ, Christos, the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word Messias, means "anointed." According to the Old Law, priests (Exodus 29:29; Leviticus 4:3), kings (I Kings 10:1; 24:7), and prophets (Isaias 61:1) were supposed to be anointed for their respective offices; now, the Christ, or the Messias, combined this threefold dignity in His Person.


okay, when we look at the information we have here, i think we find that the issue is not w/ the meaning of a name, but w/ the name itself. "Jehovah" is an incorrect name, while "Jesus" merely has an incorrect name in its definition. i don't think that an incorrect name in the definition of "Jesus" disqualifies the name "Jesus" itself.

also, the name "Jehovah" is incorrect b/c the transliteration is incorrect. apparently, either the wrong vowels were mixed w/ the sacred consonants (YHWH) or the entire practice should not have been done. at any rate, just b/c this particular transliteration is incorrect, i don't think that means that all transliterations are incorrect. it seems to me that some transliterations are permissable. (just my educated opinion, i don't know w/ certanity). so, just b/c it says "The word Jesus is the Latin form of the Greek Iesous, which in turn is the transliteration of the Hebrew Jeshua, or Joshua, or again Jehoshua" i don't think that means that we should instantly be alarmed.[/quote]

No plagerism. Just trying to keep everything straight.

Peace.
Q

[Quietfire]

I guess I am trying to see the link between the name Immanuel and Jesus. As far as prophesizing Immanuel and the actual birth and naming of the Christ as Jesus.

Although, I also realize that it would have seemed strange (in my own head) for God to be so obvious as to call the child Immanuel upon birth. Like Herod wouldnt have figured that out.
Total giveaway.

Still though, was the name Jesus in any original documents. Does anybody know. Or..
Has the name of our Savior always been Jesus? Is that the actual name that Mary gave to him?

Thanks.
Peace.
Q

[Quietfire]

bump

[cmotherofpirl]

[u]Yehosu''a[/u] is [i]the Lord saves[/i] in Hebrew.

[The second mark in the name is supposed to look like a comma but I can't do it on my computer.]

In Latin it is Iesum(Iesus) But in latin the endings change, depending on the sentence.

In the OT, the 6th book is Joshua. Joshua also means [i]the Lord saves[/i].

[phatcatholic]

wasn't aramaic what jesus and the apostles spoke? i wonder what the aramaic for "Jesus" is.....

[phatcatholic]

i found [url="http://www.answering-christianity.com/eesa.htm"][b]this[/b][/url] from an Islamic website, which says that Jesus' name in Aramaic is Eesa.

that article is interesting to say the least. it basically claims that this person we call "Jesus" actually held [b]none [/b]of the following names:
--Yahushua
--Yeshua
--Jesus

since i am not a linguistic scholar, i have no clue how to respond to this. maybe since this site (answer christianity) is a response to the website "answering islam" there may be some answers at the latter.

i'll look and see.....

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[phatcatholic]

i believe this is the response given by "answering islam":[list]
[*]Jesus’ mother tongue was Aramaic. In his own lifetime he was called Yeshua in Aramaic, and Jesu in Greek. This is like calling the same person John when speaking English and Jean when speaking French: Jesu, pronounced "Yesoo", is the Greek form of Aramaic Yeshua. (The final -s in Jesu-s is a Greek grammatical ending.) Yeshua is itself a form of Hebrew Yehoshua’, which means ‘the Lord is salvation’. However Yehoshua’ is normally given in English as Joshua. So Joshua and Jesus are variants of the same name.

It is interesting that Jesus' name Yehoshua’ contains within it the proper Hebrew name for God, the first syllable Yeh- being short for YHWH ‘the LORD’.

Yeshua of Nazareth was never called ‘Isa, the name the Qur’an gives to him. Arab-speaking Christians refer to Jesus as Yasou’ (from Yeshua) not ‘Isa.
[/list]this site is refuting the islamic claim that Jesus' real name is "Isa." but, the islamic website (answering christianity) says Jesus' real name is "Eesa." maybe Eesa and Isa are the same?

i will browse both sites and see if i can find more on the original name of Jesus. here are links to both sites, if anyone wants to do some research of their own:
--[url="http://answering-islam.org"]Answering Islam[/url]
--[url="http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac.htm"]Answering Christianity[/url]

pax christi,
phatcatholic

Edited June 7, 2004 by phatcatholic

[phatcatholic]

how's it going quietfire?

has the information provided both here and in the debate table been helpful for you?

let me know.....

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Quietfire]

Yes, it has.

One the one hand, the fact that (as I see it) noone has really done an in depth study into his name is amazing, I think that's why there are so many different variants. I mean, just in these few weeks we've seen so many variations on his name.

On the other, there are so many people out there that (as I see it) deny the divinity of Christ altogether so that is why I think this is important. I think the name Jesus has now, at this date, become the universally accepted name of the Christ. That being said, it has also become a target for a few to shoot at.

Again, this info is great. Would it be a smart move at some point in the future to compile all the info and put it in your Apo. list? I am sure this is a topic that will continue to be a 'soft' spot for those to attack. Understanding as much as possible on His name should be somewhat of a priority.

As far as the other site, I've pretty much got someone to admit there that they consider the Vatican to be the 'woman who rides the beast'.

I still have no idea what Gehaveh means. But I think that the G is soft. Not like in 'go' but more of a 'y' sound. This person claims to be apt in Linguistics. Is there anyone here that has that knowledge? Or maybe someone is college might know a prof. in Linguistics. Maybe someone could check into that?

Gotta go.
Again thanks. Keep up the good work.


Peace.

[phatcatholic]

quietfire,

i think i actually found the place where your dialogue is taking place. i must say that this zafira peson is delusional. i'm honest. i think that something is psychologically wrong w/ her. when i type in "Gehevah" in google and the ONLY entries that come up in the couple billion sites on the internet are her words, something is wrong. also, one tell-tell sign of delusional behavior is when a person communicates in ways that are entirely incomprehensable, yet in that person's head it all makes sense. she cannot understand why no one understands her b/c she is completely out of touch w/ reality.

i suggest you abandon this debate w/ her. debate requires a certain element of reason. yet, there is no way to get thru a schizophrenic, delusional mind. i would even propose that all those who somehow understand her and "worhsip" her are likewise delusional.

the whole site needs to be admitted to a psych ward.

what do u think? let me know if my impression is incorrect.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Quietfire]

I agree that he/she is delusional. But my sis seems to understand him/her perfectly well. If I abandon this site then it's the same as abandoning my sis. She posts there as well.
I am trying to figure out this person so I can [i]then[/i] show my sis where his/her teaching is incorrect. But like I have been saying, I cant figure him/her out.

My sis is even now, in the 'process' of packing up and moving. To where, she hasnt figured out yet. Living in New York is expensive, so she figures to move out of state, which would separate her from me, my one brother and mom. Which is what I think this person wants. I cant tell her its a rotten idea, because then she would know that I watch these posts, and I dread the accusations that would arrise from that confrontation.

I think she now thinks that I wish to control her, which is absolutely not what I would do. I have been overprotective since her husband died, but only because she was never exposed to life like I was. She went from 'my fathers house to her husbands house' and I was on my own at 17, along with my brother.

She truly doesnt know when she is being taken advantage of, until someone else points it out. In that sense, I am more streetwise than her. I tend to not trust anyone (funny huh, considering I post here!- but I watched this board since going online in December and started posting in April, and feel as though I have made some wonderful friends who truly do care about each other.)

I feel my heart letting her go, only because in the end, I cannot stop her. But I'm still not giving up on her, and this person-who ever it is- is gonna have to eventually have to go through me to get her. And as God is my witness, I wont give up without a fight. Her soul is that important to me...and to God.

Does not the shepperd, after leaving the 99 to find the lost 1, rejoice?


Peace.

[phatcatholic]

quietfire,

well then, i think you need to cut zafira out of the middle and just work directly w/ your sister. you will most likely be able to understand your sister alot better then this other crazy person.

just talk w/ ur sister. by systematic. since there is no way in hell to figure out where zafira is coming from or what she means half the time, just ask you sister:

--what do you believe about ____
--why?

--what do you believe about ____
--why?

approach her with the intention of merely learning from her. tell her, "sis, will you teach me what you believe?" don't even worry about refuting her, or answering back in any way. just sit back w/ an open ear and digest everything she tells you.

make sure she knows that you are asking this of her so that you an learn, NOT b/c you want to attack her or control her in any way. just be like, "as one sister to another, will you teach me what you believe?"

hopefully, she will expound upon what she believes and why. this will help you tremendously in figuring out what plan of action to take next. just cut psycho girl out of the picture all together. there is no point in debating w/ an insane person.

i think if you approach your sister, innocently, warmly, congenialy, soft tone, welcoming, w/ an honest intent to learn what she believes, i think she will honor that request. most people don't mind talking about their faith as long as they feel comfortable and they know they won't be attacked.

once you FINALLY know what the beliefs really are, then that will help you determine where to go next.

pax christi,
phatcatholic