Lgbt Ministry?

[thepiaheart]

Hi everyone! I know that this is a very delicate question, but I did want to raise a serious discussion about ministering to the LGBT community--and those who identify across a now much larger gender spectrum.

 

I have a number of friends who identity as gay or transgender, but my focus on this topic has been primarily academic, and it seems as if--to majorly simplify the topic and discussion--the Aristotelian-Thomistic tradition of nature, which the Church adopts in most contexts, would reject using these categories of gender or sexual orientation for identity, as the labels are constructed and therefore unnatural; and they also lend to a dualistic view of the person, as our bodies & our interior lives (our souls & mental lives, etc., in which "gender is performed") are a much greater unity than an identity as equivalent to sexuality would suggest. The soul inhabits a particular body, which means that the soul necessarily inhabits a sexed body. We also know that, scientifically, there are significant differences across the sexes. St. Hildegard of Bingen and St. Edith Stein are among those in the Church who have done a lot of work to show the substantial differences between genders that in no way hinder the equal dignity between the sexes. 

It is easy to say this all academically, but it is an entirely different question to carry this--and everything that the Church carries with her, in terms of her teaching on marriage & chaste lifestyles, etc.--into discussion with individuals.

Obviously, we seek to love them to death--and, really, part of me is deeply uncomfortable in singling out a label like this. But it is such a deeply politicized and personal question that I wonder whether anyone has had substantial experience sharing Christ & the Gospel with someone who identifies at LGBT & who, for this reason, was deeply opposed to the Church on the grounds of her teachings, etc.?

 

Many thanks.

Edited December 24, 2013 by thepiaheart

[CatherineM]

The Church has an official ministry to those with same sex attraction. It's called Courage. Their website is an excellent resource. The ministry to their family members is called Encourage.

[Clare Brigid]

Thepiahart, thank you for this topic.

 

I am a transsexual woman (male-to-female).  Perhaps I can offer the insights I've gained from my own experience as a Catholic and a transwoman.

 

I'm getting ready to leave for my parents' house for Christmas, but I'd like to begin by asking if you are at all familiar with the growing body of research showing that the brains of transfolk, due to anomalies of development in the womb, more closely match the gender with which they identify?  Some of that research is discussed here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexualism#Biological-based_theories

 

The Church has traditionally taught that a hermaphrodite has a right to choose one sex or the other.  As the science in this area develops, perhaps we will come to see that the situations of transgender people is at least analogous.  Really, it turns out that an extremely important physical structure within the human person -- the brain -- is routinely ignored by skeptics of transsexualism, mostly because it is not visible.

 

What do you think?

Edited December 24, 2013 by Clare Brigid

[CatherineM]

I have had two clients who were intersexed. Their crosses were unbelievably heavy. Their birth defects were obvious.

I also had several trans clients. Their crosses were different. I don't know what will eventually be discovered scientifically about gender identity issues, but I doubt the Church will change its theology about it any time soon.

[Clare Brigid]

The Church does not yet have a definitive teaching on transsexualism. That is probably a good thing, because the science is still advancing.

Edited December 24, 2013 by Clare Brigid

[Clare Brigid]

I should add that even though there is not yet a definitive teaching on transsexualism, the majority of bishops and theologians, I am sure, would oppose sex change procedures.

The Vatican issued a sub secretum instruction to bishops over ten years ago on the canonical status of those who have undergone sex change procedures. I know of no other official pronouncements.

[arfink]

Something to remember about St. Thomas Aquinas' view of the human person is that he is very much trying to establish a normative ideal of human nature. I do not believe this must preclude what in philosophy we might call corner-cases, situations where the norm simply cannot apply. St. Thomas couldn't have gotten the same view of homosexuality (and by extension, the whole spectrum of other gender-issues) that we have today. The idea that someone can be laden with a cross like this as opposed to simply choosing it as a vice is not something that would have probably been considered then.

 

To be perfectly frank, St. Thomas is right, gender is supposed to be binary. It is, in fact, very broken when gender is not binary, but nowhere in the Summa does Thomas get into a detailed discussion of culpability for disordered sexual inclinations. Remember that the Summa was essentially compiled from St. Thomas' class notes to priests and monks in training, so there is a vast amount of stuff that isn't covered, despite how huge the Summa is. But something else you'll notice from Thomas is that he seldom gets into the practical aspects of what you're actually supposed to do when things differ from the norm. In fact, it's one of the most frustrating things about being a Thomist is that there is almost none of the practical every-day advice built into his work that people so desperately want from the Church.

[CatherineM]

The Vatican issued a paper, I think in 2000, that reassignment surgery does not change gender. The Church was not to change the gender on baptismal certificates or allow those who had undergone the surgery to marry in the Church.

Those who are born with indeterminate sex are the exception. Those born with normal genitalia can not later licitly have it changed per the Catechism's prohibition about non-therapeutic mutilation of the body. Those who think gender reassignment surgery is going to be deemed therapeutic by the Church are kidding themselves.

Sometimes the Church doesn't put out definitive teachings on a topic because it is deemed to be obvious.

[Clare Brigid]

This is a report from the Catholic News Service, republished by NCR, summarizing that Vatican instruction: http://ncronline.org/news/vatican-says-sex-change-operation-does-not-change-persons-gender

[Ice_nine]

I think the OP explained it really succinctly and really well (in an academic sense). It's quite clear that the Catholic view is not "out there." Most people, gay or otherwise, who know (or think they know) my beliefs about homosexuality consistently come at me with either a) look at the Bible it says all this terrible stuff about murder and rape and shellfish and you take that one leviticus verse and run with it or b) Jesus didn't say anything about homosexuality and the stuff in the Bible is talking about all lustful relationships not loving, committed homosexual relationships.

 

It's difficult. I have many extended family members who are gay, and the thought that I love them less because of their professed sexual orientation or that I am somehow afraid of them is ludicrous. In their minds, they think I hate the core of who they are, but I don't see their sexual orientation as "real" in the metaphysical sense and I certainly don't see it as the core of who they are. This difference in misunderstanding is a difficult gap to transverse. It doesn't help that many religious folk buy into the idea of a deterministic sexual orientation, and it really doesn't help that our culture is so hypersexualized (although different problems arise when sexuality is heavily repressed a la the Victorian era).

 

So basically I don't have a good, practical answer. I love them, and I pray for them. To be honest I don't share my opinion very often because it's so unpopular and people get so damn aggressive when talking about it and it just sets my anxiety off.

[PhuturePriest]

I think the OP explained it really succinctly and really well (in an academic sense). It's quite clear that the Catholic view is not "out there." Most people, gay or otherwise, who know (or think they know) my beliefs about homosexuality consistently come at me with either a) look at the Bible it says all this terrible stuff about murder and rape and shellfish and you take that one leviticus verse and run with it or b) Jesus didn't say anything about homosexuality and the stuff in the Bible is talking about all lustful relationships not loving, committed homosexual relationships.

 

It's difficult. I have many extended family members who are gay, and the thought that I love them less because of their professed sexual orientation or that I am somehow afraid of them is ludicrous. In their minds, they think I hate the core of who they are, but I don't see their sexual orientation as "real" in the metaphysical sense and I certainly don't see it as the core of who they are. This difference in misunderstanding is a difficult gap to transverse. It doesn't help that many religious folk buy into the idea of a deterministic sexual orientation, and it really doesn't help that our culture is so hypersexualized (although different problems arise when sexuality is heavily repressed a la the Victorian era).

 

So basically I don't have a good, practical answer. I love them, and I pray for them. To be honest I don't share my opinion very often because it's so unpopular and people get so beaver dam aggressive when talking about it and it just sets my anxiety off.

 

Fun fact: Table cloths exist because men in the Victorian era thought table legs resembled actual woman legs too much, and they covered them to avoid people having impure thoughts. I have never once looked at a table leg and had an impure thought cross my mind, but I've always proved to be exceptional, so perhaps this is why.

[Lilllabettt]

[mod]Personal attack - BG[/mod]

[Lilllabettt]

ETA: authentic LGBT ministry does not confirm people in their weakness, but honors it.

Each LGBT individual has their own experience of carrying their particular cross, and the wisdom gained from living those experiences means each one has a contribution to make to the Christian community along our pilgrimage towards God.  That wisdom is unique, priceless, and without an effort to reach out to LGBT people, it will be lost.

So ... the right approach in LGBT ministry is a humble invitation. The Church does not change her teaching, but she welcomes, and indeed is grateful for, the wisdom that LGBT people can offer about who Jesus is.

 

[brandelynmarie]

Y es, according to the Church certain behaviors & actions are sinful. They miss the mark, what God created us for...but, I know no one who can judge or know the heart of another individual (except for holy pholk like St. Padre Pio!) And I trust by loving people & praying for them that God will meet them where they are....& that Their (God & the person's) relationship will grow...especially in holiness for the person...

[Lilllabettt]

Not even Padre Pio is qualified to judge another individual.

That fact is no support for the idea that "it doesn’t matter whether or not you think homosexuality is a sin" because "people are dying."

in other words ... given the gravity of the situation it doesn't matter if we recognize sin for what it is -- also there is a dichotomy between what is theological truth and moral responsibility and it is better to choose the latter.

For Gods sakes that sounds like a temptation from the devil himself, here we have it suggested by a religious priest and it gets a thumbs up from 6 Catholics and counting?????? there must be something I am misinterpreting here.

 

Edited December 27, 2013 by Lilllabettt