Questionable Catholic Identity Of Seton Home Study School

[Basilisa Marie]

Although I was homeschooled, my parents did not use Seton. Rather they used Calvert (the oldest homeschool program in the nation) and then later, Indiana University's online high-school. Neither is affiliated with any church.

However, much of my religious education as a child was based in the Baltimore Catechism and I have found as an adult that a solid background in rote learning can be very helpful from a moral standpoint as well as a basis of Church teaching from which to read deeper and more subtle discussions.
I am surprised that so many of the commenters seem willing to repudiate a Catechism curriculum that was heartily endorsed by so many clergy and used so widely with acceptable results.
Is there some other age-appropriate and doctrinally sound curriculum that you prefer, or that your bishop promulgates?

 

 

The Baltimore Catechism is not some crazy rad-trad tract, but was basically the official Catholic Catechism for use in the United States for many, many years, written on the authority of a Plenary Council.

 

The Baltimore Catechism certainly does not deny the doctrine of the Incarnation - nor does anyone at Seton.  That much is very clear if you read the whole Catechism, rather than nit-picking a part out of context.

 

God as God is in fact pure Spirit, prior to the Incarnation, which is not denied in the Catechism.  

 

The passage you cited does not deny the Incarnation of Christ, and no one studying the whole Catechism without an ax to grind would get that impression.

It is simply explaining to a general audience what is meant by "pure spirit."

 

Vatican II did not make any changes in theological dogma, and I think it safe to say that the Baltimore Catechism contains much less "sloppy writing" and room for bad theology than your typical post-Vat. II high-school religion textbook.

 

Belief in the literal Incarnation of God as man in Jesus Christ is explicitly taught through the Seton curriculum, and you'd be hard-pressed to find traditional "conservative" Catholics who deny the Incarnation.  Denial of the literal truth of the Incarnation is in fact much more common among "liberal Christians."

 

 

I didn't mean to imply that the Baltimore Catechism is some crazy radtrad handbook, or that catechism-based learning or rote memorization is wrong or bad or ineffective.  All I meant was to point out that depending on what edition you're using, it'd be a good idea to supplement or rephrase what's written in parts of it.  

[AnneLine]

Blessed Christmas to all!

 

I tried to 'multiquote' from page 1 but that option seems to be taking Christmas off!

 

CherieMadam, I truly don't know the answer to your question about the Kolbe young children program.  I do know what it was like when the Kolbe program and curriculum for their Napa (California) based school was like.  I knew the families involved through a series of retreats that we all attended when I was in my early collge days in the very early 1980's.   They made the decision to set up their own school and bring in hand-picked teachers and set up a curriculum that they wanted their children to have.  This was a very radical thing to do at that point -- home schooling was simply unknown, and totally uncharted waters! -- but they felt strongly enough about not wanting their children to be contaminated by the public or Catholic schools that were close enough for them to attend.

 

I visited the school once to attend a seminar, and attended a May Crowning there once.  At that point they had leased an abandoned Protestant church building.  It had a lot of rooms in addition to the worship space, which meant they could have a chapel (and I believe they got permission to have the Blessed Sacrament there) and small classrooms, which, since they were only housing about 15 or 20 students, worked really well for them.  They seem to still have a small school, and also have the internet-based distance learning program.  Those children (and their families) are probably long ago grown up... and their children may be attending now for all I know... and it could be that those children are now the teachers.  I just don't know.

 

I'm not surprised by some of the comments that some of the others have made about the curriculum and/or implementation, because it sounds very much to match the mindset of the original parents... which could be very good or very bad depending on what you want your child/children exposed to and how much time/effort you want to expend on educating your own children.   They were VERY picky about who they would have interact with their children - I was not considered an acceptable candidate to teach for them because, while I was a solid Catholic with a good background, they were suspicious of me because I both watched TV sometimes and attended a public school for some of my education. 

 

The original founders were NOT open to anyone who had attended a public university.  They did not want their children exposed to anything that was not 100% traditionalist and/or dated from--my guess would be 1960?--onward.   That frankly was a big concern for me... because I think doing that to kids leaves them kind of wide open for being totally led astray when they hit college and discover there is a different world out there.   Several very traditional-minded Catholic Priests and myself and a number of the rest of us who were involved with the retreats and/or were interested in becoming Catholic educators, tried to get them to see that it is possible to expose children to the rest of the world while shaping their values in a traditional Catholic way, but they were unconvinced.  I don't know if they have changed their views or not.  They do seem to have included a fair amount of materials about the new Catechism and Vatican II, which sounds promising.   Students need that exposure.  However, I bet it WOULD be hard slugging for a high school student, unless they had a pretty gifted teacher doing the exposing... and same with the whole 'great books' curriculum emphasis.  One thing to have that as background... but you just can't hand the books to kids and expect them to get it.

 

What I do see is that they seem to have adapted a very rigorous high school program, but the elementary program seems to be fairly basic if traditional.  I WOULD think that either might be a good basis for a home school program, but I think it would be as good as the parents who implemented it.  I don't think it WOULD be very interesting for children who were just plunked in front of the materials and left to do work.   BUT if it were implemented WITH a lot of supplemental activities, I could see it working well.

 

Homeschooling wasn't an option when I was a young dinosaur (he he he), and I alternatively was totally overwealmed by the schoolwork (math is not my area of expertise....) or unchallenged  (heck, I tested at at 12th grade reading level when I was in 5th grade....).  But... I early learned about the library and started reading a bunch of stuff on my own.  I got fascinated by all sorts of things, and my parents just got me a lot of outside acitivites going at a time when no one DID a lot of outside activities.   So I helped at an animal rescue museum, learned to sew (while riding several bus lines to a mall in the next county.... ) and a bunch of other stuff before I was a Sophomore in college.  I volunteered in a hospital... basically, supplemented my OWN education.  I would think if a parent really got into it.... the Kolbe Academy materials look usable.

 

I would, however, be VERY wary of any educational materials that push 6 day creationism or similar revisionist viewpoints.  I think it gets kids confused, and really can be very detrimental to their willingness to trust and learn from adults.  Did  any of you see the interesting discussions (both on Lameboard and in the Debate Table) a few weeks ago when one of the young Phatmassers asked for help to 'defend' the early being created in only 7000 years 'because that is what we are required to believe'?  Took several of us quite a bit of doing to get her to see that she had been fed a bunch of hogwash from one of these programs.   Grrrrrr.  My grumpy 2 cents....

 

ANYWAY, thank you, all of you, for caring enough to give your kids a good start educationally!   My bet, CherieMadam, is that they would send you some sample materials if you are really interested.  I'd love a review if you do that... maybe get some from both programs and tell us how they look side-by-side?????

 

Blessings!

Edited December 25, 2013 by AnneLine

[dells_of_bittersweet]

I'm a Seton graduate. While I appreciated the academic rigor of the courses, I had issues too.

 

1. Yeah, 100% agree, this is a serious problem. I was very behind in science, and honestly, their arguments for 6 day creationism are bull.

2. Yes, also agree. Much too hardcore on the evangelicalism.

3. It would have been nice to see Theology of the Body as a teen. I think I may have missed this one back then though because of exceptionally good formation through the parish youth group and so on. But looking back, I see you're right.

4. I don't remember this one, but as I have all the books here, I'd be curious to see where you found that. Can you just say which books it was in, so I can look for it?

5. I don't see that as super damning in itself, but yeah, I thought senior year could have been done a lot better.

 

I don't think it's anti-Catholic, it's just very slanted.

 

Artfink, check out Anne Carrol's world history book. I can't remember where it is, but I think it is in multiple places. Somewhere there is discussion of forced conversions where I think it might justify it based on religious freedom being a delusion or something like that. 

 

The history courses deviate from Catholic teaching in multiple places. For example, they justify all kinds of wars that would have difficulty living up to Just War doctrine. I recall pages of reasons of why the crusades were just, and Just War doctrine was not ever brought into the discussion. Additionally, they promote fascism as being in line with church teaching, and promote Franco as a great Catholic. I later learned that he was one of the great human rights abusers of the 20th Century.  

[AnneLine]

Silly Quoting system, it lets me quote myself, but not you all !   THAT is discrimination!!!

 

But I'm glad because... I found a BIG typo I just fixed:  That should read HIGH SCHOOL!!!!!

 

 

Blessed Christmas to all!

 

I tried to 'multiquote' from page 1 but that option seems to be taking Christmas off!

 

CherieMadam, I truly don't know the answer to your question about the Kolbe young children program.  I do know what it was like when the Kolbe program and curriculum for their Napa (California) based school was like.  I knew the families involved through a series of retreats that we all attended when I was in my early collge days in the very early 1980's.   They made the decision to set up their own school and bring in hand-picked teachers and set up a curriculum that they wanted their children to have.  This was a very radical thing to do at that point -- home schooling was simply unknown, and totally uncharted waters! -- but they felt strongly enough about not wanting their children to be contaminated by the public or Catholic schools that were close enough for them to attend.

 

I visited the school once to attend a seminar, and attended a May Crowning there once.  At that point they had leased an abandoned Protestant church building.  It had a lot of rooms in addition to the worship space, which meant they could have a chapel (and I believe they got permission to have the Blessed Sacrament there) and small classrooms, which, since they were only housing about 15 or 20 students, worked really well for them.  They seem to still have a small school, and also have the internet-based distance learning program.  Those children (and their families) are probably long ago grown up... and their children may be attending now for all I know... and it could be that those children are now the teachers.  I just don't know.

 

I'm not surprised by some of the comments that some of the others have made about the curriculum and/or implementation, because it sounds very much to match the mindset of the original parents... which could be very good or very bad depending on what you want your child/children exposed to and how much time/effort you want to expend on educating your own children.   They were VERY picky about who they would have interact with their children - I was not considered an acceptable candidate to teach for them because, while I was a solid Catholic with a good background, they were suspicious of me because I both watched TV sometimes and attended a public school for some of my education. 

 

The original founders were NOT open to anyone who had attended a public university.  They did not want their children exposed to anything that was not 100% traditionalist and/or dated from--my guess would be 1960?--onward.   That frankly was a big concern for me... because I think doing that to kids leaves them kind of wide open for being totally led astray when they hit college and discover there is a different world out there.   Several very traditional-minded Catholic Priests and myself and a number of the rest of us who were involved with the retreats and/or were interested in becoming Catholic educators, tried to get them to see that it is possible to expose children to the rest of the world while shaping their values in a traditional Catholic way, but they were unconvinced.  I don't know if they have changed their views or not.  They do seem to have included a fair amount of materials about the new Catechism and Vatican II, which sounds promising.   Students need that exposure.  However, I bet it WOULD be hard slugging for a high school student, unless they had a pretty gifted teacher doing the exposing... and same with the whole 'great books' curriculum emphasis.  One thing to have that as background... but you just can't hand the books to kids and expect them to get it.

 

What I do see is that they seem to have adapted a very rigorous high school program, but the elementary program seems to be fairly basic if traditional.  I WOULD think that either might be a good basis for a home school program, but I think it would be as good as the parents who implemented it.  I don't think it WOULD be very interesting for children who were just plunked in front of the materials and left to do work.   BUT if it were implemented WITH a lot of supplemental activities, I could see it working well.

 

Homeschooling wasn't an option when I was a young dinosaur (he he he), and I alternatively was totally overwealmed by the schoolwork (math is not my area of expertise....) or unchallenged  (heck, I tested at at 12th grade reading level when I was in 5th grade....).  But... I early learned about the library and started reading a bunch of stuff on my own.  I got fascinated by all sorts of things, and my parents just got me a lot of outside acitivites going at a time when no one DID a lot of outside activities.   So I helped at an animal rescue museum, learned to sew (while riding several bus lines to a mall in the next county.... ) and a bunch of other stuff before I was a Sophomore in college High school.  I volunteered in a hospital... basically, supplemented my OWN education.  And did a lot of reading, math, science, etc. that matched with my own interestsI would think if a parent really got into it.... the Kolbe Academy materials look usable.

 

I would, however, be VERY wary of any educational materials that push 6 day creationism or similar revisionist viewpoints.  I think it gets kids confused, and really can be very detrimental to their willingness to trust and learn from adults.  Did  any of you see the interesting discussions (both on Lameboard and in the Debate Table) a few weeks ago when one of the young Phatmassers asked for help to 'defend' the early being created in only 7000 years 'because that is what we are required to believe'?  Took several of us quite a bit of doing to get her to see that she had been fed a bunch of hogwash from one of these programs.   Grrrrrr.  My grumpy 2 cents....

 

ANYWAY, thank you, all of you, for caring enough to give your kids a good start educationally!   My bet, CherieMadam, is that they would send you some sample materials if you are really interested.  I'd love a review if you do that... maybe get some from both programs and tell us how they look side-by-side?????

 

Blessings!

 

And another thought that lines up with this.... I'm involved in formation for my Secular Order.   We had 'provided' to us (i.e., you WILL teach this!) the equivalent of a Carmelite great books program dumped on us for new members of the Secular Order.  In theory we take them through how to pray, how to use Liturgy of the Hours, Carmelite History, Rule of St. Albert, current Constitutions & Statutes.... AND take them through St. Teresa's Way of Perfection and Interior Castle, St. John of the Cross' Living Flame of Love and Dark Night/Ascent of Mt. Carmel, and St. Therese' Story of a Soul over a period of about 7 years.  It's crazy!  Because... they all have their outside lives to live!!!! No one lets them take off seven years.

 

BUT What I have found does work is to have those as the framework and do a LOT of supplementation... and what they get supplemented with is based on what they need.  Some have never learned any European history... or have no experience  of reading something older than 25 or 50 years ago.  It's part of the task.  You can't just dump stuff like that on people.  You need to get creative, and then you get them all excited.     People won't appreciate the LOTH unless they understand the Mass... and they won't get the Church Year either.  It all does tie together, but it is a LOT of work, a LOT of work.  So.... yup, pray about it!

 

So..... yes, it is do-able, but be prepared to do a LOT of work on your own!!!!

 

 

Christmas Blessings... have to serve dinner now!!!!!

 

[add]

Seaton runs a good program, every year the kids had to take the local school districts year end state (NY) administered by and independent certified school teacher
The kids always did well on this final exam
Of ourse religion wasn't included on the State test
Seaton homeschool is a well rounded program, the religious aspects are more than adequate for elementary level schooling.

Not to say that easy, it's a lot of work

[dells_of_bittersweet]

Although I was homeschooled, my parents did not use Seton. Rather they used Calvert (the oldest homeschool program in the nation) and then later, Indiana University's online high-school. Neither is affiliated with any church.

However, much of my religious education as a child was based in the Baltimore Catechism and I have found as an adult that a solid background in rote learning can be very helpful from a moral standpoint as well as a basis of Church teaching from which to read deeper and more subtle discussions.
I am surprised that so many of the commenters seem willing to repudiate a Catechism curriculum that was heartily endorsed by so many clergy and used so widely with acceptable results.
Is there some other age-appropriate and doctrinally sound curriculum that you prefer, or that your bishop promulgates?

 

The Baltimore Catechism is dated because there was an ecumencial council held after it was printed. Anyone would rightly object to a Catechism still in use that was written before the Council of Trent and not updated. While Catholic doctrine does not change, our understanding of it can grow and mature. The Baltimore Catechism lacks the perspective gained from Vatican II. 

 

Vatican II didn't develop new doctrines but exhorted us on why we believe our faith, and what we should do about it. Thus, the problem with the Baltimore Catechism is not what it teaches, but how it teaches it. The faith was not meant to be memorized as a list of rules from a book-it was meant to be lived. 

 

I have had a strong negative experience with the pre-Vatican II perspective of the Baltimore Catechism. It has a heavy emphasis on the rules and not a heavy emphasis on why we believe what we believe. As a result I used to be very legalistic about my faith. 

 

The Baltimore Catechism seemed to me like a 164 step guide to staying out of Hell. I tried really hard to follow all the rules in there but I was doing it robotically. It took me a long time to unlearn this view. I used to worry about going to hell, a lot. Also, I felt like the BC presented a very dreary view of the faith and I used to have silly ideas that Christians were supposed to be very sad on earth, but at least would be happy in heaven eventually. 

 

Furthermore, If I were a Sunday only Catholic and were handed a Baltimore Catechism, I would be revolted. Regardless of any theological issues I just mentioned, its just stuck in the 60s and no longer culturally relevant. If someone were to retypeset it, give it a stylistic feel similar to that of the YouCAT, and update the use of the English language, I think it would be much improved and at a minimum an improvement over the doctrinally wishy-washy stuff that most of the entrenched Catholic companies seem to still think are current. 

 

I've heard it said that the BC did a good job of teaching Catholic doctrine to kids who already came from a Catholic culture. Especially among immigrant families, many kids got the faith at home and just needed to learn the facts at school. Catholic religious education programs are now tasked with catechising kids who have not been evangelized.

 

There is one program that has a track record of both evangelizing and catechizing lukewarm teens from nominally Catholic families: Lifeteen.

 

Lifeteen significantly deepened my faith and I can't tell you how many people I've seen go from zero to being on fire with Lifeteen. I know several people who had not much for a faith life when they started high school who are now in or will be entering seminary. 

 

The program is doctrinally orthodox and culturally relevant. It is endorsed by the USCCB. The USCCB gives a handful of their lesson plans away for free. http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/vocations/educators-and-youth-leaders/lesson-plans/upload/lesson-plan-holy-orders.pdf

 

Times change. The BC takes a completely logical approach to the faith with minimal approach to emotion. It treats the faith like something that can be completely learned from a textbook. It was printed in a time when people wanted to come to "understand God."

 

Lifeteen takes more of a whole person approach. As human beings we have both reason and emotion, and while remaining strong on explaining the faith on a logical level, it also appeals to the current desire to "experience God." Also, in addition to telling you how to live your faith, it also shows you how to live your faith through the presence of several strong young adult leaders. It also promotes an ownership of the faith such that kids become examples to each other. 

 

I can give another post about the challenges of relating to modernism vs postmodernism if there is interest. At the time of the BC, the overall cultural movement was modernism, but that has changed in recent decades to postmodernism. Lowering ourselves to those extremes would be a mistake, but knowing that kids are experiencing a drastically different cultural philosophy dictates a drastically different approach to religious education. 

[dells_of_bittersweet]

www.lifeteen.com

 

www.catholicyouthministry.com

 

http://store.lifeteen.com/one-eight-confirmation-program.aspx

 

Their materials are set up so that you can use them for religious formation from grades 6-12. 

[PhuturePriest]

I don't trust Wikipedia.

 

Wikipedia doesn't trust you.

[southern california guy]

Yeah, makes sense.  Outside of engineering and pure sciences, you don't really need calc or trig unless you are doing quant stuff in finance or econ, do you?

 

Getting a real solid basis in arithmetic and how to apply it with critical thinking does make more sense - or I'd at least consider it a prerequisite before spending so much time on trig/calc.

 

>>> You cant have a basic biology course without including evolution.

 

Yes, it's just that my impression reading these replies is that a huge portion of the science courses are centered around creationism, where i'd expect it to be a page or two, at least in high school.

 

You might use trig later.  I think that the reality is that most college students don't know their basic algebra.  Most people that I knew in college didn't.  In fact I will go beyond that -- most people that I know don't know their basic algebra.  When I was working as an electrician, the other electrician apprentices were struggling with the algebra.  And nobody knew how to figure a percent...

[add]

www.lifeteen.com

www.catholicyouthministry.com

http://store.lifeteen.com/one-eight-confirmation-program.aspx

Their materials are set up so that you can use them for religious formation from grades 6-12.

Did you know that your school is accredited? Seton Home Study School is accredited by the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools Council on Accreditation and School Improvement (SACS CASI) in association with AdvancED, a private and prestigious organization that accredits more than 30,000 schools around the world. Accreditation is a method of quality assurance designed to acknowledge schools that operate with a high standard of educational principles and practices.

[NotreDame]

The Baltimore Catechism is dated because there was an ecumencial council held after it was printed. Anyone would rightly object to a Catechism still in use that was written before the Council of Trent and not updated. While Catholic doctrine does not change, our understanding of it can grow and mature. The Baltimore Catechism lacks the perspective gained from Vatican II. 

 

[10 paragraphs on why you like lifeteen and not the baltimore catechism]

 

Hey Dells,  I'm not going to disagree with you because almost everything you wrote was subjective - ie. your opinion - even if you presented some things as objective.   It's perfectly fine if you don't like something and, instead, prefer something else.  Just keep in mind others aren't going to necessarily share your tastes, so if your point of view is just a purely subjective opinion, you'll get farther presenting it as such.

 

One point I will make... most of the things you don't like about the Baltimore catechism, whether you know it or not, are really just objections to how we used to teach kids in the USA.  You could take most of your objections and apply them to any early 20th century history or math book in the same way you applied them to the catechism. 

[AnneLine]

CherieMadam, and all,

 

I'm not trying to shove Kolbe down anyone's throat, but I hadn't thought they were accredited... and apparently they are.

 

Lots of good info about that & other stuff in this link:

 

http://www.kolbe.org/documents/catalog/FAQ.pdf

 

Accreditation

 

Kolbe Academy is fully accredited by NAPC*IS – the National Association of Private, Catholic, and Independent Schools. Founded in 1995, NAPC*IS is dedicated to strengthening and promoting Catholic education through accreditation. The measures for accreditation employ the Standards of Excellence to the curriculum, which 

demand fidelity to Roman Catholic teachings and implementation of sound academic principles. The Standards of Excellence are the essential component of NAPC*IS accreditation and are incorporated in the Standards and Criteria for accreditation. For more information on NAPC*IS and accreditation, visit NAPC*IS’ website at www.napcis.org.

Edited December 26, 2013 by AnneLine

[dells_of_bittersweet]

I'm a Seton graduate. While I appreciated the academic rigor of the courses, I had issues too.

 

1. Yeah, 100% agree, this is a serious problem. I was very behind in science, and honestly, their arguments for 6 day creationism are bull.

2. Yes, also agree. Much too hardcore on the evangelicalism.

3. It would have been nice to see Theology of the Body as a teen. I think I may have missed this one back then though because of exceptionally good formation through the parish youth group and so on. But looking back, I see you're right.

4. I don't remember this one, but as I have all the books here, I'd be curious to see where you found that. Can you just say which books it was in, so I can look for it?

5. I don't see that as super damning in itself, but yeah, I thought senior year could have been done a lot better.

 

I don't think it's anti-Catholic, it's just very slanted.

 

I think Seton presents an incomplete view of human sexuality. I can recall one passage from the senior year religion book that says words to the effect of "sex is sacred, so we shouldn't ever talk about it." They definitely practice what they preach on that one, because the curriculum rarely addresses sexuality at all. I think Seton is weak on the concept the sex is good and something that is legitimate to desire. So, I think there are a few elements of puritanism in their presentation of this topic. 

 

Taking Christopher West's course through my college Catholic campus ministry was a revelation after my exposure to how Seton talks about sex/avoids the issue. He right away talks about how great sex is. 

[mortify ii]

There are certainly benefits to homeschooling, for me I think it would be ideal to do it for the first few years of the child's education, and then send them off to public school. Although homeschooling is great it's also taxing on the parents, and to have one parent stay home and not work is rather challenging.

[tinytherese]

A homeschooling family could use the Faith and Life series or the Image of God series for a religion curriculum. There's also this family catechesis program. http://www.familyformation.net