Duck Dynasty Dis

[Clare Brigid]

which is why I've focus as best as I have been able to focus solely on the topic and acts or actions

 

. . . of others.

[Aloysius]

while I get your point and it's a fair one in general that people do tend to have an inordinate focus on condemning this particular sin (I think it goes back to what I said in my last post about this whole culture-war thing, this is one of the battlefields of that culture-war people really jump into and get coarsened positions that IMHO became fights at the expense of the people in the middle--ie those who have those temptations/orientations etc) , to be fair, this is a thread about homosexuality so one cannot fault him for talking exclusively about those particular sins in this particular thread.

 

anyway, like I said, even though people use that phrase "love the sinner hate the sin" in sincere and well-intentioned ways, it's a very tainted phrase.  the critique of that phrase is not intended to be a condemnation of anyone using it in particular, but pointing out that the phrase is flawed and tainted and that the superficial line it draws generally provides cover for something we should be against, even if we do not (or do not consciously) ourselves use it to provide cover for that kind of thing.

[KnightofChrist]

Sir, you are focusing on the sins of others.  That is the point.
 
Do you have any you can focus on?  It would be best, for you and for us.

If I were naming particular individuals and then focusing on their particular sins, the passage you posted earlier would apply to me because that is what it is condemning. It condemns me if I for example called you out, a particular individual, for particular sins I accused you of being guilty of. But I have not done that here, and I will not ever do that.

[Aloysius]

you know I always thought Pat Robertson or someone coined that phrase originally... but a cursory Google search attributes it to Mahatma Gandhi.  O.o :blink: who knew?  Maybe it was Pat Robertson who first applied it to homosexuals?  Not sure Fulton Sheen or any saint ever actually used it exactly, but I could be wrong.

 

it's one of those phrases that has a life of its own, though... like "separate but equal"... which is why I'd not want to be associated with it myself.

[KnightofChrist]

while I get your point and it's a fair one in general that people do tend to have an inordinate focus on condemning this particular sin (I think it goes back to what I said in my last post about this whole culture-war thing, this is one of the battlefields of that culture-war people really jump into and get coarsened positions that IMHO became fights at the expense of the people in the middle--ie those who have those temptations/orientations etc) , to be fair, this is a thread about homosexuality so one cannot fault him for talking exclusively about those particular sins in this particular thread.
 
anyway, like I said, even though people use that phrase "love the sinner hate the sin" in sincere and well-intentioned ways, it's a very tainted phrase.  the critique of that phrase is not intended to be a condemnation of anyone using it in particular, but pointing out that the phrase is flawed and tainted and that the superficial line it draws generally provides cover for something we should be against, even if we do not (or do not consciously) ourselves use it to provide cover for that kind of thing.

This thread stopped being fair when it became about my me and my person, questioning my sincerity is just newest accusation that isn't very charitable at all.

[Aloysius]

ah, further search attributes the origin of the phrase to St. Augustine

Cum dilectione hominum et odio vitiorum

"With love for mankind and hatred of sins." 

 

I don't mind it stated that way, though.  The form it takes now is actually from Gadhi, who knew?

[KnightofChrist]

you know I always thought Pat Robertson or someone coined that phrase originally... but a cursory Google search attributes it to Mahatma Gandhi.  O.o :blink: who knew?  Maybe it was Pat Robertson who first applied it to homosexuals?  Not sure Fulton Sheen or any saint ever actually used it exactly, but I could be wrong.
 
it's one of those phrases that has a life of its own, though... like "separate but equal"... which is why I'd not want to be associated with it myself.

I have about all of Bishop Sheen's audio recordings, that I have listened to many, many times. I know he has stated it or something very similar to it. I've never heard any of this hate for the phrase before I used it. I've seen it used on Phatmass many many times, and never has any protested it so much as they have here. I just think it's because you guys don't agree with and you have a distaste for my position.

[Aloysius]

This thread stopped being fair when it became about my me and my person, questioning my sincerity is just newest accusation that isn't very charitable at all.

well this whole back and forth centered around your sincerity is rather pointless... I don't think Crosscut's general statement about that phrase was intended to attack your sincerity personally but you did of course take it as such (which is understandable given the sequence of posts) and so went the last page or so.  I don't doubt your sincerity in the meaning of that phrase but in general I do think that phrase is a cover-all that really fails to deal with the problems surrounding hatred.

 

honestly, the phrase "separate but equal" wouldn't really be so bad if it referred to actual equality... and someone could sincerely mean that they wanted equality when they used the phrase... but like I said, it's one of those phrases that has a life of its own at this point.

[Aloysius]

I have about all of Bishop Sheen's audio recordings, that I have listened to many, many times. I know he has stated it or something very similar to it. I've never heard any of this hate for the phrase before I used it. I've seen it used on Phatmass many many times, and never has any protested it so much as they have here. I just think it's because you guys don't agree with and you have a distaste for my position.

my protestation of that phrase has nothing to do with you.  I've personally used the phrase in the past as well... I really find it rather cliche, superficial, and meaningless nowadays.  Like I said, I don't doubt your sincerity in the use of the phrase to mean something sincerely well-intentioned, but ultimately I can't really stomach it as a viable or meaningful line these days... mostly because of how over-used it has been surrounding the homosexual issue.  I guess I've heard too many people who are actually repulsed and hateful of homosexuals use that phrase to gloss over that fact.  The Protestant Pastor I referenced in my last post on the last page who said he understood the impulse for bullying as a natural revulsion even if he didn't condone the bullying, for instance, would've certainly used that phrase.

[KnightofChrist]

well this whole back and forth centered around your sincerity is rather pointless... I don't think Crosscut's general statement about that phrase was intended to attack your sincerity personally but you did of course take it as such (which is understandable given the sequence of posts) and so went the last page or so.  I don't doubt your sincerity in the meaning of that phrase but in general I do think that phrase is a cover-all that really fails to deal with the problems surrounding hatred.

 


What other way could I have worded it that would make it acceptable? I know people may not like the pharse but do we agree in principle with what the phrase is suppose to stand for? I believe we should. What it should stand for, what I believe it stands for is a truth. I don't believe we should hate the sinner, and I do believe we should hate the sin. How should this be phrased so that it meets with everyone's approval? I don't know if there is any way I would say it where would it would meet with everyone's approval. Edited January 3, 2014 by KnightofChrist

[KnightofChrist]

ah, further search attributes the origin of the phrase to St. Augustine
Cum dilectione hominum et odio vitiorum
"With love for mankind and hatred of sins." [/size]
 
I don't mind it stated that way, though.  The form it takes now is actually from Gadhi, who knew?[/size]

Missed this post, and if it originally came for Augustine, that would explain why I believe Bishop Sheen repeated it some manner. That does sound more elegant and poetic. But it would probably receive the same dislike if it became a common use. lol ;p

[CrossCuT]

A homosexual friend of mine on FB recently made a post regarding this phrase we are discussing. Someone had used it on him and he was very upset about it. 

[Clare Brigid]

Pope Francis has told us to stop overly focusing on a short-list of favorite sins to criticize.  That short list includes homosexuality.

 

There is a reason for the Holy Father's correction.  It obscures the Gospel.

 

Does the Holy Father's correction apply to you, Knight of Christ?

Edited January 3, 2014 by Clare Brigid

[KnightofChrist]

Pope Francis has told us to stop overly focusing on a short-list of sins that just happens to coincide with a certain political ideology.  That short list includes homosexuality.
 
There is a reason for the Holy Father's correction.  It obscures the Gospel.
 
Does it apply to you, Knight of Christ?

The reason this thread has centered around the topic of the sin of sodomy is because it is at least somewhat part of the original topic. The Holy Father does not condemn us for speaking out against sin. The topic of this thread centers around the sin of sodomy, because it is the main topic of the thread it is the main focus of it. And anyway if I recall correctly that phrase supposedly from the Holy Father, was actually written by the reporter and not an actual direct quote from the Pope, and the interview was removed from the Vatican's website.

[Clare Brigid]

The reason this thread has centered around the topic of the sin of sodomy is because it is at least somewhat part of the original topic. The Holy Father does not condemn us for speaking out against sin. The topic of this thread centers around the sin of sodomy, because it is the main topic of the thread it is the main focus of it. And anyway if I recall correctly that phrase supposedly from the Holy Father, was actually written by the reporter and not an actual direct quote from the Pope, and the interview was removed from the Vatican's website.

 

No, I'm not referring to the Scalfari article, but rather to other statements of Pope Francis.

 

The fact that someone has posted a topic does not license people to express, ad nauseam, their very special disgust for a sin that besets others.