The Growing Scourge Of Catholic Tribalism

[NotreDame]

Haven't read previous posts yet - getting ready for Vigil Mass, Sat 4.1.14 4.45pm here in Sth Aussie. My parish priest said something to me today which is food for thought for me.  Because we had swung so far in one direction pre V2, post V2 'the horse tended to bolt' too far in the opposite direction and it will take time and patience, trust, to find that happy medium.  I can relate to those thoughts. :)

I can't relate to this analogy at all.  It's nice sounding, but inaccurate in my view because Prior to Vatican II I don't see any problems on the same scale as those we saw afterwards. 

 

If on the Vatican II side of the pendulum we have mass exodus and heresy, what was on the other side of the pendulum?  Nobody has explained what was so bad prior to the council outside of some jingoistic nuns at schools - and at least they had orthodox nuns at catholic schools in those days. 

[BarbTherese]

 "Open Windows - Why Vatican II was necessary" http://www.catholicity.com/commentary/gjohnston/07720.html (This is not a personal experience reflection and is more an in depth type of analysis).

 

Undoubtedly, my personal insight into why Vatican II was needed was personal experience (as was my parish priest's) and therefore limited viewpoints of necessity. And personal experience can have some validity as limited personal experience.  We both experienced years pre VII and then post and personally we could see problems in both eras and we both realize that only time and The Grace of The Lord with His Will for our future will find that happy medium, as it were - whatever God Wills that 'happy medium' might be.

We both understand too that the history of The Church has been a troubled history (The Cross) and rightly "take up your cross and follow me" and will continue to be so in some form or other - and neither of us subscribe to millenarianism. (both millenarianism and modernism (condemned by Pius X) began pre VII).  As time progresses once a heresy raises it's head, it is not at all unusual for it to change clothing and adapt cunningly to the times as time progresses and continue to exist in some form, not always recognized generally as the clear heresy that it is - except by The Church guided by The Holy Spirit in Her Teaching Authority.

 

Article: "Reading Vatican II as break with tradition is heresy" (Archbishop Muller ) - and by both traditionalists and progressives.  Archbishop Muller is Prefect for the Congregation for the Doctrine of The Faith http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1205009.htm  Excerpt: "A "council presided over by the successor of Peter as head of the visible church" is the "highest expression" of the Magisterium, he said, to be regarded as part of "an indissoluble whole," along with Scripture and 2,000 years of tradition.
The doctrinal chief's remarks were published in the Vatican newspaper, L'Osservatore Romano, to present the seventh volume of "The Complete Works of Joseph Ratzinger." The volume collects both published and unpublished notes, speeches, interviews and texts written or given by the future pope in the period shortly before, during and just after Vatican II.

 

__________________

Millenarianism CCC http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c2a7.htm#676

The Church's ultimate trial

675 Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.⁵⁷⁴ The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth⁵⁷⁵ will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.⁵⁷⁶

676 The Antichrist's deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,⁵⁷⁷ especially the "intrinsically perverse" political form of a secular messianism.⁵⁷⁸

677 The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection.⁵⁷⁹ The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God's victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.⁵⁸⁰ God's triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.⁵⁸¹

 

 

Edited January 5, 2014 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

It seems to me (mea culpa) that those that opinion that the so called ' good years' pre VII is some sort of a sign that things were more right and on track back then - and probably totally without realizing it - are in denial of The Cross as our way and are subscribing to a form of millenarianism i.e. that we need to see The Church humanly triumphant and victorious in quite human terms like statistics etc.  Though, indeed, we are triumphant and victorious because The Cross will always be that "stumbling block" to the wordly wise that St Peter spoke about in his first epistle:

 

"[6] Wherefore it is said in the scripture: Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious. And he that shall believe in him, shall not be confounded. [7] To you therefore that believe, he is honour: but to them that believe not, the stone which the builders rejected, the same is made the head of the corner: [8] And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of scandal, to them who stumble at the word, neither do believe, whereunto also they are set.|"

 

And in the words of St Paul in his first epistle to the Corinthians :

 

 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not in wisdom of speech, lest the cross of Christ should be made void. [18] For the word of the cross, to them indeed that perish, is foolishness; but to them that are saved, that is, to us, it is the power of God. [19] For it is written: I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the prudence of the prudent I will reject. [20] Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this world? Hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

 

Edith Stein - St Benedicata of The Cross: "Just as the Lamb had to be killed to be raised upon the throne of glory, so the path to glory leads through suffering and the cross for everyone chosen to attend “the marriage supper of the Lamb” (Rv 19,9). All who want to be united to the Lamb must allow themselves to be fastened to the cross with him. Everyone marked by the blood of the Lamb (cf Ex 12,7) is called to this, and that means all the baptized. But not everyone understands the call and follows it. http://dailygospel.org/main.php?language=AM&module=commentary&localdate=20140103

 

Mea maxima culpa

Edited January 5, 2014 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

.........all that is not to state that Catholics understanding their Faith and practising, that conversions, are all not important.  They are vitally important, but the opposite is not of necessity that The Church has failed or is failing.  As with what happened with Vatican II, it might be a sign that The Church needs to look long and hard at Herself and address any problems and in the hope that Catholics will grow in the understanding of their Faith and realize the great importance of practising faithfully - and that we will have more conversions to His One True Church.

Vatican II was not a break with the past, it was looking at the past and addressing problems pastorally and some post VII have just bolted too far, much too far and in complete misunderstanding of VII, if not denial of it.  Others find VII a complete stumbling block and long for 'the old days'.  Somewhere between all that is the real Vatican II.  IMVhO

Mea culpa.

[mortify ii]

Criminals, vagabonds and whores don't usually frequent the Sacraments, so I wouldn't class them as practising Catholics.  And they simply would have been the largest percentage of non-practising Catholics in France of the day.  The overwhelming majority would have practised.  They wouldn't have been good.  I need to underscore this point again.  I'm not saying any of them were saints.  I'm saying that there was a culture and society and identity that acted as a safety net for the integrity of the Catholic community.  It's basic human sociology and psychology.  Were there people that weren't criminals or whores but who didn't practise the faith?  Undoubtedly.  But of absolute minimal contribution to the discussion, a minority so small that they do not even register.

 

You choice of words hurts my modern ears. To be quite frank, this grand "Catholic society" trads have in mind is more akin to a totalitarian regime, and not something I want to be apart of.
 

[ClemensBruno]

Correlation does not imply causation.

Vatican II is an easy target to blame for all sorts of current issues in the Church. However, the assumptions that one has to make to support this notion are not rational. For example:
1) History is linear, i.e., one series of connected events.
2) Vatican II was the most powerful societal change. The effects of industrialization, scientific advancements, technological achievements, democratization, and secularism all pale in comparison to V2.

I don't pretend to know the cause(s) of our problems, but I would venture to guess that Vatican II's overarching problem was timing.

[An Historian]

You choice of words hurts my modern ears. To be quite frank, this grand "Catholic society" trads have in mind is more akin to a totalitarian regime, and not something I want to be apart of.
 

 

My words worked for a civilisation that stretches back centuries and even millennia.  Forgive me if I do not apologise for offending your modern sensibilities.

 

All I have done is observe basic sociological and psychological facts about human beings.  It can be used in more than one way.  It can be perverted and thus children can be socialised into accepting immoral and false truths and actions.  Thus parents have a tremendous moral obligation before God for the proper rearing of their children.  And God created us as social beings so I believe I am fully justified in believing that He created us as social beings to assist in our salvation, in fact that it is necessary to our salvation because we were created as such.

 

So it's not that much of a leap to say that the socialisation process and our societies and cultures should be Catholic to assist us in our salvation.  And that it did.  I would rather someone spend a life time attending Mass out of social expectation, rather than a life time outside the church gates in a state of mortal sin because they refuse to fulfill their Sunday obligation.

 

You call it totalitarianism.  I call it being human.

Edited January 5, 2014 by An Historian

[BarbTherese]

You may be spot on, CB, looking at things in a rational and worldly sort of way - and this has very real value.  But The Lord has reasons rather often which bamboozle - and He can rather often "write straight in (outstandingly) very crooked lines".  And not at all unusual when addressing something or other from a Faith perspective to be considered overly simplistic and at times even quite irrational - and this is just a general sort of comment not directed at you or anyone in particular.  :)

 

Being a valid Council of The Catholic Church, Catholics ideally believe it was a work of Jesus as Head of The Church and thus a work of The Holy Spirit to the Glory of The Father.

 

In what I just quoted in a previous post, mention (at the end of one of the articles***) is made of St Francis of Assisi and his call to all Christianity - and if we all had truly followed him rather than just heralded him as a wonderful saint, some things in history just might have been avoided.  Yet, if one reads the story of St Francis and his early saintly years, I could not blame anyone at all at the time for thinking that the poor man had completely lost his marbles and written him off as such. Had I lived at the time and been part of that particular milieu, I am sure I would have been in their ranks.

 

Perhaps those with a better understanding of history than I can give you a response that is more informed from your perspective.

 

All the best.............cheers..............Barb :)

___________________________________

 

*** http://www.catholicity.com/commentary/gjohnston/07720.html

[BarbTherese]

1 rather than a life time outside the church gates in a state of mortal sin because they refuse to fulfill their Sunday obligation.

 

For a Catholic to deliberately not attend Sunday Mass without a just reason is grave matter only.  For such to be mortal sin, two other conditions are necessary at the same time as grave matter:

 

"Full Knowledge"

"Full Consent"

 

God alone is the Final Judge.  

 

Catholic Catechism: 1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

 

[An Historian]

For a Catholic to deliberately not attend Sunday Mass without a just reason is grave matter only.  For such to be mortal sin, two other conditions are necessary at the same time as grave matter:

 

"Full Knowledge"

"Full Consent"

 

God alone is the Final Judge.  

 

Catholic Catechism: 1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

 

I am not saying that there are not mitigating circumstances.  But the reality is that mortal sin abounds in the world.  To deny this would be a terrible, terrible wrong and an offense against the dignity of God and a wound to His Sacred Heart.

 

Will there be people outside those gates with insufficient knowledge and consent?  Perhaps one or two.  The greater mass of them will know full well that what they are doing is wrong, and consent to it, and thus offend God, trivialise His Passion and Death, and lose their immortal souls.

[BarbTherese]

I did do a response - twice, AH, but I am having problems with formatting on Phatmass and keep loosing my post, and obviously for good reason else, simply, it would not happen (Theology of The Permissive Will of God).  Will return at a later point when my quite human emotion of absolute frustration settles down and I can think quietly on the level of Faith I am hoping.  I have to learn with Phatmass to write a response into Word and then cut and paste.

 

Barb ............   Catcha later :)

[BarbTherese]

Frustration passed and wrote into Word and here is the cut and paste:

 

Jesus died to save all mankind and there can be nothing futile about His Reasons for dying.  He has told us that we are the salt of the earth, and asks us what happens if salt loses it’s taste.  The world is in a mess with evil and grave matter abounding ; therefore, I with all Catholicism, must take a long hard serious look at myself, with all, for Jesus tells me that I and we are indeed the salt of the earth and the earth does seem in a mess.  God alone will be the Final Judge of who is in a state of mortal sin and condemned to Hell and who is saved.

 

Pope Benedict has told us that we only have the fear of the sins IN THE CHURCH MEMBERSHIP to fear (previously quoted link http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1104798.htm  ) – and reflecting on Jesus and His statement about “salt of the earth”, I can have a notion of why Pope Benedict said what he did.

 

Only God is our Final Judge and it is not our business to be about judging and judgement and Jesus has told us “ [36] Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. [37] Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you shall be forgiven. “

 

  Psychologically and spiritually speaking, we cannot know where a person “is coming from” and the factors in his or her past that may have led them to some behaviour and  potential mitigating factors in "full knowledge and full consent" to constitute grave matter as mortal sin and deadly.  Our business is to hope, pray and work ardently for the salvation of all mankind as beloved and dear to the Sacred Heart of Jesus and for whom He Died.  

 

Prayers quite regularly prayed by The Church at the Intercessions at Morning and Evening Prayer in The Divine Office are for the salvation of all.  Is to do so futile? – i.e. to pray for the salvation of all? Were the reasons Jesus died somehow futile?  I do not believe so.

 

__________________________

GAUDIUM ET SPES

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_cons_19651207_gaudium-et-spes_en.html

 

45. While helping the world and receiving many benefits from it, the Church has a single intention: that God's kingdom may come, and that the salvation of the whole human race may come to pass. For every benefit which the People of God during its earthly pilgrimage can offer to the human family stems from the fact that the Church is "the universal sacrament of salvation",(24) simultaneously manifesting and exercising the mystery of God's love. For God's Word, by whom all things were made, was Himself made flesh so that as perfect man He might save all men and sum up all things in Himself. The Lord is the goal of human history, the focal point of the longings of history and of civilization, the center of the human race, the joy of every heart and the answer to all its yearnings

REDEMPTORIS MISSIO
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_07121990_redemptoris-missio_en.html  "To this catholic unity of the people of God, therefore,...all are called, and they belong to it or are ordered to it in various ways, whether they be Catholic faithful or others who believe in Christ or finally all people everywhere who by the grace of God are called to salvation."¹⁷ It is necessary to keep these two truths together, namely, the real possibility of salvation in Christ for all mankind and the necessity of the Church for salvation. Both these truths help us to understand the one...........”

 

 

 

[BarbTherese]

In the Parable of the Pharisee and The Sinner, we see the egoism of the Pharisee who does not need God since he proclaims before God that he has always done the right thing i.e. meaning that God is obliged to accept him (Goodness!).  We see the sinner down the back (and probably hardly ever does “the right thing” if then!)bowing his head before God, knowing he needs God and pleads for the Mercy of God.

 

Jesus tells us that God accepted the sinner but not the publican.

 

 

Not one of us will get into the pearly gates when all is revealed at Judgement without very humbly indeed pleading for God’s Mercy I am convinced.  The problem, as I see it, is that we just do not really understand what sin actually is – venial or mortal – what our many imperfections actually are in reality.  At Judgement we will have some notion to our horror in the Eternal Light of The Glory of God.

Edited January 5, 2014 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

All the above is not to state that here on earth we cannot have some knowledge of whether one is in the state of mortal sin for example or not.  That is up to every individual and those from whom they may ask advice - including one's confessor in Confession.  But Final Judgement will not take place until Judgement Day and by The Lord - and then we will know for absolutely sure in every single instance and for every single soul - and at which point we will know our final destination: Heaven or Hell.  Meanwhile, we all also work out our own salvation in "fear and trembling"

Paul to Philippians 2:12 "with fear and trembling work out your salvation".

[An Historian]

I have not judged any specific individual so I bear no guilt for a sin that has not occurred.  I've made a very simple statement.  That mortal sin exists in the world and that there are persons that exist in a state of mortal sin.  And there are people that die in such a state.  And those such people will suffer eternal fire for their sin, of their own free will.  I am just back from confession and morning Mass.  I was in a state of mortal sin.  It was a grave matter, I had full knowledge and I consented to the act for my own malicious and treasonous ends.  If I had died before confessing or without making a perfect act of contrition, I would have gone to hell and fully deserved it.

 

There are souls in hell for now and for eternity.  I don't want to see anyone else go there!  I pray that all men from this day forth are saved.  But hell is a concrete reality, there is a very real possibility that souls can go there.

 

Do [i]not[/i] be so flippant about the reality of sin and hell and its very real consequences.  Christ's sacrifice will save us, if we cooperate and choose to follow him.  Many, many do not.  And in the personal cases of a soul, His sacrifice is in vain.  Not because His sacrifice is lesser or imperfect.  But because the reprobate has renounced the Sacrifice and Redemption of Christ.

 

The predestinate, the elect, will glory in God's Justice and rejoice when the damned are cast down into hell.  I don't know how, I can't imagine how it will be so.  But so it will be.

 

Our job is to make sure we don't end up down there, and that we can help get as many souls into Heaven as possible.  Repent, be baptised, do penance, watch and pray.