The Growing Scourge Of Catholic Tribalism

[ClemensBruno]

Impressive and instructive comments so far, although think I need a Catholic dictionary to benefit more fully from this discussion. Forgive me if I missed it buried in the arguments, but...

What exactly does "Catholic tribalism" mean?

Before reading this thread, was under the impression that (here I can only speak about American Catholicism) Catholic tribalism is the assumption that all who identify as Catholic are uniformly in lockstep agreement with what the American bishops proclaim in political, economic, and social matters.

The contributions so far seem to suggest a commonly held but unspoken understanding of Catholic tribalism as something else: an issue different but related to what I initially assumed it to be. Or, maybe not? ...A little help, please?

[NotreDame]

What exactly does "Catholic tribalism" mean?

Before reading this thread, was under the impression that (here I can only speak about American Catholicism) Catholic tribalism is the assumption that all who identify as Catholic are uniformly in lockstep agreement with what the American bishops proclaim in political, economic, and social matters.

The contributions so far seem to suggest a commonly held but unspoken understanding of Catholic tribalism as something else: an issue different but related to what I initially assumed it to be. Or, maybe not? ...A little help, please?

 

Tribalism, I guess, is arbitrary, but I'd go back and read the first post and links to see how it's being referred to in this thread.  For the purposes of this thread tribalism is people within the church separating into tribes as opposed to being a unified people (at least that's how I understood it.)
 

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

your evaluation of the decline is probably incorrect.  The catholic church in the USA at least was growing gangbusters through the 20th century especially during the reign of St Pius XII, right up until Vatican II. 

 

 

Than the pope was wrong in his encyclical letter i guess when he said words to this effect " in hine site we noticed the decline in numbers of those entering religious life from 1914(unsure of the exact date or year), we have noticed this began in quebec canada where the number of women becoming nuns suddenly reduced drastically and that decline continued and spread." Something along those lines anyway i don't remember what was said word for word. I think it was in the encyclical  deus caritas est or veritas splendor .

 

 

Jesus is LORD.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2013/10/an-explosion-of-converts-and-priests.html

 

 

 

 

 Began in 1914. BEGAN! :)

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Obviously the statistics were superficial. High quantity but poor quality, in a decade everything would change.

 

 

Hence the popes words that i quoted as being 'Began in 1914' Notre seems to be only only concentrating on american statistics when the papal encyclicals as far as i'm aware are usually universal in the world wide sense. Those stats obviously where local.

 

p.s.  Well that was ridiculous I thought i was deleting my previous post and re writing with this one. Not delibrately triple posting everyone, please forgive.

Edited December 31, 2013 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

FACT:  The US Catholic church grew up in every category up until Vatican II.  After Vatican II it's numbers fell off precipitiously.  Over the last decade it appeared to reverse the decline.

 

You guys can use all the colloquialisms and euphemisms and mental acrobatics you want to avoid admitting that V-II in some way shape or form played a role in this, but it's pretty hard to deny and I don't see how Vatican II can be left out of any analysis of the decline.  The facts are plain as day.  Obviously it's not all attributable to Vatican II (eg. many of the jesuits that left immediately after VII were ordained well before so what was up then?) but there was a lot of tradition and orthodoxy lost in the time after vatican II and that certainly contributed to the lack of new vocations in a major way and it's worth looking at what role VII played in that.  

 

I don't know why everyone gets their underwear in a bunch over this... It's like the whole gay thing.  People just get irrational and you can never discuss it openly.  

 

 

You seem to be the one with the underwear bunched up about it :lol: " carry on columbus: J/k but i agree the world is very sayonced and undiscussible to some degree or another and seems to get very upset even angrily or desparitively about having conversation when the other disagrees. What is universal in the world wide sense that most everyone does on a regular basis that could be the casue, let me tell you brother, T.V. Movies and Pop music.

Edited December 31, 2013 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[ClemensBruno]

Thanks, NotreDame, for the clarification. I feel a bit more comfortable now in tossing in my two cents worth...

I am fairly certain that differences in practice of the Faith within the Church is not new at all. On the contrary, these kinds of differences have existed since the founding of the Church. St. Peter disagreed, at least initially, with St. Paul on who can join the Church. St. Peter thought of the Church as an evolution in Judaism, while St. Paul strongly felt that the Church should be open to anyone who believed.

The Sts. Peter v. Paul debate was merely the first in a slew of unknown quantity in differences among the faithful in the early Church. There is a growing body of archeological evidence that paints an early Church with a wide variety of practices and doctrines--a picture that contradicts what has been long assumed.

The Council of Nicaea settled these differences, but not for long. Subsequent differences--heresies--regularly arose in the post-Nicene Council Church. Eventually, the East v. West debate resulted in the great schism. Then, of course, the Reformation fragmented the Western Church even further. What was left had to distinguish itself by name as Roman Catholicism, which was soon rocked from within by Jansenism. Et cetera.

That's one perspective. ...I just thought of another one, which I'll have to save for a future post.

What might be new in the current "Catholic tribalism" is the decidedly unCatholic and unChristian contempt held by ideologues against their perceived nemeses. ...Hhmmm... After some quick reflection, I'm not so certain this attitude is truly novel.

It's unclear to me whether or not I've added anything of value to further the conversation, so my apologies if you agree. I'll try to do better when I have more time.

[BarbTherese]

It is not so much the differences that concern me most of the time, it is the decided lack of Charity towards those that might disagree.  Attributed to St Augustine "In essentials - unity, in non essentials - liberty ........ and in all things Love".  This is something that Pope Francis is bringing to the fore - "in all things Love".  This is something that was lacking pre VII.  I recall my childhood years when hatred for non Catholics (protestants they were then termed) was insisted upon and even by the nuns who taught me in primary school.  We were forbidden to even talk to them or smile at them - we were to ignore them totally as people destined for hell.  Our spirituality formation pre V2 certainly left much to be desired, it was appalling.  This continued into my entrance into religious life pre V2 as a teenager.  I was not at all surprised when there was a mass exodus post V2 from the religious order I had entered and that this order is now very close to extinction as a form of religious life.

          Sometimes those years pre V2 are romanticised and on an unreal basis.  I am  now 68yrs less a few days. There was much about those years that I loved and still do and cling to and still very much existing and proclaimed - and much about those years too that I was only too happy to totally abandon.  And most often there was a contradiction existing between those two during my pre V2 primary school and religious life formations, contradictions existing between what I still hold contradicted by what I could at last abandon which eliminated the contradictions. Hope that makes sense.

         Sadly, I think.  Much of what I was taught pre V2 was conditioned into Catholic cultural consciousness and it was this cultural consciousness that suffered and needed to suffer in a process of detachment post V2.  Not all were able to negotiate that process of detachment.  Others want to romanticize those years pre V2 and 'chuck out the baby with the bathwater'.  V2 was a major Pastoral Council of The Catholic Church - and "I will be with you all days, even to the consummation of the world".

 

Other members can probably say it all far better.

 

_______________

31st December 2013 here in Australia

Happy New Year and Solemnity of Mary Mother of God.

Edited December 31, 2013 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

..........while other members might be able to 'shoot me down in flames' - c'est la vie! :)

[BarbTherese]

Blessed Pope John XXIII

Papal Encyclical: "Ad Petri Cathedram" (On Truth, Unity and Peace in a Spirit of Charity)

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_xxiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_j-xxiii_enc_29061959_ad-petri_en.html
 

Excerpts only:

71. The Catholic Church, of course, leaves many questions open to the discussion of theologians. She does this to the extent that matters are not absolutely certain. Far from jeopardizing the Church's unity, controversies, as a noted English author, John Henry Cardinal Newman, has remarked, can actually pave the way for its attainment. For discussion can lead to fuller and deeper understanding of religious truths; when one idea strikes against another, there may be a spark.(25)

72. But the common saying, expressed in various ways and attributed to various authors, must be recalled with approval: in essentials, unity; in doubtful matters, liberty; in all things, charity.

Unity In Organization

73. That there is unity in the administration of the Catholic Church is evident. For as the faithful are subject to their priests, so are priests to their bishops, whom "the Holy Spirit has placed......to rule the Church of God."(26) So, too, every bishop is subject to the Roman pontiff, the successor of Saint Peter, whom Christ called a rock and made the foundation of His Church.(27) It was to Peter that Christ gave in a special way the power to bind and loose on earth,(28) to strengthen his brethren,(29) to feed the entire flock.(30)

_________________

 

81. Once when a terrible schism was rending the seamless garment of the Church, Bishop Theophilus of Alexandria addressed his sons and brethren with words of pastoral zeal. We take pleasure in addressing these same words to you: "Dearly beloved, we have all been invited to heaven. Let each, then, according to his abilities imitate Jesus, our model and the author of our salvation.

82. "Let us embrace that humility of soul which elevates us to great heights, that charity which unites us with God; let us have a genuine faith in revealed mysteries.

83. "Avoid division, shun discord,... encourage charity toward one another. Heed the words of Christ: 'By this will all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.'" (34)

________________________

 

87. "Let us love God our Lord; let us love His Church. Let us love Him as our father and her as our mother, Him as our master and her as His handmaid. For we are the children of His handmaid. This marriage is based on a deep love. No one can offend one of them and be a friend of the other... What difference does it make that you have not offended your father, if he punishes offenses against your mother?... Therefore, dearly beloved, be all of one mind and remain true to God your father and your mother the Church." (38)

 

 

Mea maxima culpa

[NotreDame]

I am fairly certain that differences in practice of the Faith within the Church is not new at all.

 

Yes, I more or less agree.  Earlier in the thread I noted that there have always been heretics and, not only that, but there have always been different spiritualities as well.  I think what's different is that you also have polarization in the larger society as a whole, which to some extent represents the current divisions in the Church (Modernism vs orthodoxy vs traditionalism.)  

 

It is not so much the differences that concern me most of the time, it is the decided lack of Charity towards those that might disagree.  Attributed to St Augustine "In essentials - unity, in non essentials - liberty ........ and in all things Love".  This is something that Pope Francis is bringing to the fore - "in all things Love".  This is something that was lacking pre VII.  I recall my childhood years when hatred for non Catholics (protestants they were then termed) was insisted upon and even by the nuns who taught me in primary school.

 

Well, if your argument is that problems were creeping into catholic schools prior to Vatican II... It's an issue that VII didn't fix, but instead accelerated.  I'd take your jingoistic orthodox nuns over the flaming heretics teaching in this archdiocese any day.

Edited December 31, 2013 by NotreDame

[mortify ii]

"There is a growing body of archeological evidence that paints an early Church with a wide variety of practices and doctrines--a picture that contradicts what has been long assumed."

What is a good example of this?

[NotreDame]

"There is a growing body of archeological evidence that paints an early Church with a wide variety of practices and doctrines--a picture that contradicts what has been long assumed."

What is a good example of this?

 

The epistles.

[mortify ii]

Be more specific if you can

[NotreDame]

I can't speak to what ClemensBruno was referring to, but many of the letters of the new testament were written to correct heresy.  Collossians is one. 

 

I think the gist of what Clemens Bruno said is that the dissent and heresy today doesn't stand out when compared to previous periods, but rather that church history shows that heresy and dissent have been the unfortunate norm rather than the exception.  The epistles are an example of this.  The faithful, both lay and clerical, have always seemed to have had their hands full correcting heretics.

 

Wikipedia actually has a nice quick overview:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy_in_Christianity