The Growing Scourge Of Catholic Tribalism

[NotreDame]

I'm not sure I agree that the NO is inherently subjective. The subjectivity occurs when people are allowed to choose to make their own choices in certain regards, and sometimes they choose badly. These regards as far as I can think of would be church architecture, music choice, sermons, and the attitude of the people (as you mostly pointed out already). I am not convinced that bad choices in these areas are unique to the NO. 

 

I am not aware of any regulation that prohibits the EF from being said in ugly churches. Likewise, you can give a fluffy feel good sermon in English regardless of the form.

 

[... 8 more paragraphs on the Novus Ordo...]

 

Well, dells,  you seem pretty stuck on this Novus Ordo thing.  You seem to be obsessing about the mass as much as a traddie. 

 

I mentioned the NO mass briefly, also saying I regularly go to one.  I was trying to point out that the subjectivism allowed from the NO relative to the other rites (both EF and Eastern) is a problem.  If the subjectivism isn't in the rubrics or church instruction than it's in the implementation (hence the reform of the reform.)  To try to pretend it's not there is a little disingenuous.

 

I spent most of my time pointing out there are are real issues out there... Not just ugly churches, bad music, and milquetoast sermons, but real problems of heresy that have crept into every aspect of the church from sermons, to parochial schools, to seminaries (which you completely ignored in your response) and that it's the latter that people are really reacting to. 

 

They see that these things have correlated with the issues in the Novus Ordo in the US (not saying the NO is the cause, but to them it's gone hand in hand) and, since they have important things to do like raise families, they've reacted by forming what you call a "tribe."

 

Until you relax about the Novus Ordo and are willing to admit to the root problems (outside of the mass) that are motivating people to run to the EF, then you aren't going to be building any bridges or championing any internal ecumenism.

[NotreDame]

Its the job of the bishops to condemn and remove people who are truly heretics. Its a problem when we start playing bishop and choose to separate ourselves from other people who aren't perfect. Practically every Catholic has trouble accepting some form of church teaching. The liberals are notoriously bad on social issues. Many conservative groups aren't much better on economic ones-just take one look at all the Pope Francis haters on the right. Our job is not to avoid these people, but to evangelize these people. When we form little groups composed of only those we deem to be perfect our at least "to our standards" we've gone too far. 

 

ETA: if your kid ends up with a legitimately unothodox teacher, I'm not calling it tribal if you choose to change the circumstances. There's a difference between not teaching your kid heresy and purposely avoiding sinners your own age. Everyone is a sinner of some kind-we need to be one body in Christ and help each other improve. The growing trend to isolate yourself does not do this. 

 

>>> Its a problem when we start playing bishop and choose to separate ourselves from other people who aren't perfect

 

So keeping your kids and yourself away from bad influences is now "playing bishop"?
 

>>> Practically every Catholic has trouble accepting some form of church teaching.

 

No, not really.

 

>>> Many conservative groups aren't much better on economic ones

 

Any examples?

 

>>> Our job is not to avoid these people, but to evangelize these people. When we form little groups composed of only those we deem to be perfect our at least "to our standards" we've gone too far.

 

Well aren't you playing bishop here?  Telling us what our jobs are?  By your definition cloistered carmelites have gone too far, lol

 

Seriously dells, you start a thread about the problems with tribalism and then you get all argumentative with somebody who doesn't necessarily disagree with you, but is trying to give more context to the issue... It's no surprise that somebody like you might end up feeling the tribalism more starkly than others.

[tinytherese]

I knew a guy in college who thought that if you didn't say the rosary as a devotion that you were a bad Catholic.

[NotreDame]

I knew a guy in college who thought that if you didn't say the rosary as a devotion that you were a bad Catholic.

 

using the framework I presented above, he would be a "fundamentalist".

[Clare Brigid]

This is a very good topic.  Thank you for posting it.

 

Tribalism among Catholics is one of my chief concerns, too.  Even though I have attended the traditional Latin Mass since 2007, I refuse to identify myself any longer as a traditionalist because I have seen what that identification can do to people.  It does make them ideologues, and all too often, hateful ones.

 

I'm afraid I disagree with you to some extent about the traditional Latin Mass versus the Novus Ordo Missae.  While I accept the Novus Ordo (the "Ordinary Form") as Catholic, I do think the traditional Latin Mass (the "Extraordinary Form") is objectively superior in conveying a sense of the sacred.  It might even communicate more grace, all things being equal, because it helps people to be more disposed to receive those graces.  That does not mean that I consider the Ordinary Form to be "evil."  Not at all.  I still attend it when I must, but it just feels very horizontal, bland and flat to me.

 

However . . . getting back to your main point, I think the way around the tribalism, whether it is on the left or the right, is to focus on the Gospel.  Read the Gospel every day, preferably praying it in lectio divina.  When "trads" read the Gospels, they hear Our Lord's warnings against elevating certain styles of religiosity above all else.  They see His emphasis on humility, mercy toward others, and faith.  When progressives read the Gospels, they see Our Lord's emphasis on the Cross -- dying to oneself, which means that life is not a hootenanny and the Church is not a mere NGO.

 

I'm very glad that Pope Francis has made the Gospel his emphasis, because that is right where I think the emphasis should be.

 

It's hard for me in any event to be a tribal trad.  I'm an immigration lawyer, representing immigrants.  And I'm a transsexual woman.  And yet I consider the traditional Mass more than a mere preference or style.

 

Lord, thank You for preventing from fitting inside a little box!  Deo gratias!

Edited December 23, 2013 by Clare Brigid

[BarbTherese]

Went to a celebration many years ago at our local Carmel here.  My hair badly needed a wash and it was a mess, so I donned a scarfe.  After the celebration, I saw a Carmelite (male) heading my way (seated out in the garden) and in full Carmelite habit.  I quickly doused my cigarette as he approached and it went something like this :

Him "I congratulate you young lady, you were the only woman in The Church with her head covered"

Me, wondering why he hadn't seen me douse my cig : "Thank you, Father" and off he went on his way.

 

Later I was talking to the prioress of the monastery in question, and laughingly told her of the Carmelite priest who congratulated me for covering my head when there was nothing devotional about it - only my unwashed messy hair needing to be covered - and I was thankful he hadn't noticed the cigarette.  She replied laughingly that the 'priest' was not a Carmelite nor a priest at all - he just liked to wear the Carmelite habit.

 

It's all in appearances that we 'judge' or assess, arrive at conclusions(" for man sees those things that appear, but the Lord beholds the heart." 1 Samuel Ch17)  And it is the heart that counts.

 

I love the Latin Mass, but love the English Mass too and I am able to attend either devotionally only devotionally different.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

What if it has more to do with the T.V. and movies and has nothing to do with NO or EF or any other particular form or rite of the holy mass.

 

And to add in hines site the holy catholic church noticed a drop in the number of women desiring to become nuns in quebec from about 1911, this was revealed in pope beenedicts encyclical Deus Caritas Est, or was it pope John paul 2 encyclical Veritas splendor. This has less to do with the NO as some may think, this decline or sleep as it was described in the papal encyclical started in 1911, it started in the traditional rite and has continued through the NO, or is she arising/waking up, which can take time and the NO and vatican2 is what has woken her from her slumber.

 

 

Edited December 25, 2013 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[Winchester]

I prefer the new dancing clown guitar mass, myself. 

[BarbTherese]

No matter how The Mass is 'dressed liturgically', the essence of The Mass is something far greater transcending all and this remains a constant no matter the particular liturgy.  If we could really appreciate this, we would, I believe, transcend the differences of each 'tribe' and find unity, allowing each 'tribe' or group to have their preferred liturgy without criticism - or so I believe.  In a Latin Mass, I am carried along by a spiritual sense of awe and sacredness by the Latin personally, which the essence of The Mass deserves.  In a Mass in English, I am carried along and with a sense of awe and sacredness by entering into the literalness of the Prayers of The Mass in my native tongue, which the essence of The Mass deserves. :)

Now and then I have experienced both in both forms for where I still understand the Latin without a written translation into English.

 

_______________________

 Happy Christmas season.

Feast St Stephen - First Martyr

 

 

[BarbTherese]

Wanted to edit my post slightly, but was timed out!  :locked: Nothing dramatic on either score.

[NotreDame]

What if it has more to do with the T.V. and movies and has nothing to do with NO or EF or any other particular form or rite of the holy mass.

 

And to add in hines site the holy catholic church noticed a drop in the number of women desiring to become nuns in quebec from about 1911, this was revealed in pope beenedicts encyclical Deus Caritas Est, or was it pope John paul 2 encyclical Veritas splendor. This has less to do with the NO as some may think, this decline or sleep as it was described in the papal encyclical started in 1911, it started in the traditional rite and has continued through the NO, or is she arising/waking up, which can take time and the NO and vatican2 is what has woken her from her slumber.

 

your evaluation of the decline is probably incorrect.  The catholic church in the USA at least was growing gangbusters through the 20th century especially during the reign of St Pius XII, right up until Vatican II. 

 

 

 

 

[NotreDame]

your evaluation of the decline is probably incorrect.  The catholic church in the USA at least was growing gangbusters through the 20th century especially during the reign of St Pius XII, right up until Vatican II. 

 

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2013/10/an-explosion-of-converts-and-priests.html

 

 

[BarbTherese]

After every Council apparently, there is a period of confusion and unrest in The Church as all try to understand the Council and what it means.  Our history has most always been turbulent and I think it is one experience to read about these problems in the past and another experience entirely to be living through them - and yet those who lived through these turbulent times in the past probably felt the same as we do now experiencing a Church in crisis.

Sort of like seeing a snake in the distance (reading about crisis in the past) and then the experience of having it wrapt around one's arm (living through actual Church crisis).

Statistics really can be made to state anything.  If The Church did look decidedly healthy to human appearances and data at a certain point - was it actually and truly in reality as healthy as it seemed to appear? 

Undoubtedly scandals have now revealed that The Church was direly in need of transparency and cleansing bringing about "birth pangs of growth" - and The Lord is seeing to it.  These matters are still in progress very often and the final results are yet to be seen.  We are yet to see the results of Pope Francis's papacy too.

 

_______________

Feast St John Apostle and Evengelist

Happy Christmas season!

Edited December 27, 2013 by BarbaraTherese

[Winchester]

t life is not a hootenanny 

I think I've heard enough of this nonsense.

 

 

Good day to you, Miss!

[mortify ii]

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2013/10/an-explosion-of-converts-and-priests.html

 

 

 

 

Obviously the statistics were superficial. High quantity but poor quality, in a decade everything would change.