Can You Kill A Dead Person?

[CrossCuT]

I think the lesson here is: Dont judge poor people and dont judge Catherine.

[blazeingstar]

I think the lesson is

Don't judge Catherine

and

Sometimes justified, righteous anger appears to be judging, but in reality is not.

[CatherineM]

I wasn't supposed to be poor. I was supposed to be a judge at least by now. No one wants lawyers with memory problems who starts forgetting words when she gets tired or stressed. My written communication is fine because that part of my brain wasn't hurt. My oral can be complicated. I can't understand people's speech well enough to use the phone. Try getting a job when you can't use a phone. I was lucky to pass a class where the exam was oral. I think he took pity on me.

I use a walker because my legs are partially paralyzed. I never know when they will decide mid step to stop working. That's not good here when there is ice half the year. If I fall and hit my head I could die or become a vegetable.

My husband has schizophrenia so naturally job offers aren't plentiful even if he could endure the stress of a full time job. He can sit on provincial or national advisory committee, but the Safeway next door wouldn't hire him to sack groceries. Neither one of us wanted to be disabled. Sometimes in life it's not about what we want but just accepting God's will.

Most people consider the disabled to be parasites on society. That we are people who are just too lazy to work. It's a crushing blow to ones self esteem. To make up for our parasitic existence we give speeches, sometimes 2-3 times a week about disability issues or mental illness. We donate our time to a variety of organizations.

I have been asked many times why I don't just accept money for my writing. In the beginning it was because I couldn't stand the idea of taking money for the story of the worst thing that ever happened to me. Now it's because writing money isn't secure. I don't know if tomorrow I might lose that ability too. If I make too much money one month of the year, my husband would lose his medical coverage and we couldn't afford the medicine that keeps him sane. It's $1200/ month.

So we are two broken people who try to make a whole together. He handles my phone calls like a trascriptionist and I take care of him when he's overtired and thinks the tv is talking to him. The only normal person in the family is the basset hound. Even he has a job. He wakes me up at night when I'm screaming in my sleep reliving my attack. My husband's meds knock him out so he doesn't wake up thankfully. It can be hard on the neighbors though.

[blazeingstar]

Catherine,

 

I think in this world of people who are quick to say "don't judge" its forgotten that there are sometime cases where a person hare the right to be judged.because they do know the details of the individual.  I think the erosion of this has started in parenting styles where it is no longer ok to judge your children and decide an appropriate punishment. Parents' jugment is questioned all the time.

 

From that, it leads outside to home to neighbors. People who are given every opportunity to succeed do not, and then their children are damaged.  People are afraid to call CPS becuase they will be feared to have "judged" the poor family.

 

In Zach's case what his mother did was criminal.  She should of been in jail by the time Zach was young and in an ideal world been in a controlled facility where she could have her basic needs met and do simple jobs to earn money in order to provide for her chilren.  Not too far from me there is a Catholic run apartment complex that does just that.  The people there have problems with drugs, the law, mental illness or all of the above and are given strict rules, a job but are also heavily supported medically and physically.  They are sometimes completely under the facilities control and 100% supervision (probation, wards of the state)  and sometimes their voluntarily.after prison or through self identification.  It uses state funds for those who need full time disability care. 

 

Anyway, I digress.

 

 

I think that lillabet overreacted to you because she felt judged, when clearly, this is not the case.  You are hurting from the damage caused.

 

I really feel for Zach, and even if he was trying to cause sympathy, he's got alot of reason to get sympathy and perhaps when that's filled he will be able to conquer some of mountians he faces due to neglect.

 

[mortify ii]

Honestly, Catherine, the whole "whats in here? Oh I can't guess, cuz I didn't have presents growing up" thing seems pretty obvious and transparent to me.
For whatever reason, the kid wanted to tell you he didn't ever get presents. My guess is he knows exactly how sad it is and was either 1. trying to make you feel good or 2.make you feel sorry for him, for whatever reason.

So .. his mom. Maybe she did get him a dollar store present but didn't wrap it, or maybe she decided it was better for her to get her drugs that week rather than go through withdrawal at Christmastime. Maybe she was too sick to see straight. Who knows? The decisions poor people make, especially addicted poor people, seem to be nonsense and evil to middle class people with paid up health insurance. But poor people math is not middle class math, and 2+2 does not always equal 4.

Basically what I'm reacting to is you standing in the grocery store looking at the poor people wondering how many of them have too much pride or don't care enough to get their kids a Christmas present. I am probably over reacting. Let me give you some context; I just got done listening to a friend of mine rag on homeless people, cuz why don't they go to shelters? Just had my fill of middle class saviors ragging on the poor.

Wow you're cynical

[Lilllabettt]

I'm not sure where the idea came from that I was middle class. My dad only made more that $20,000 a couple of years towards the end of his working life. We lived in a house that was 800 sq. ft. cost $8000 and there was six of us. I know how much he made because I did my parents taxes from the age of 12 on.

I make $1500/month in a place where studio apartments routinely cost $1000/ month, and house right now four extra mouths to feed. I use the food bank. We get clothing from St. Vincent and the Marian Centre. What we can't get free, I make by hand. We don't have cable or other luxuries. The money that my books make mostly goes to charity. I may be the only person left on the planet who darns socks. I barter sewing for car repairs. I collect pop bottles for the money.

I don't look down my nose at anyone. Everyone around me is higher on the food chain than I am, so I couldn't if I wanted to. I knew Zach's mom well, for years. She attended daily mass with me. She obviously had demons that didn't show.

As to him doing that to get me to feel sorry for him, he is so brain damaged from her drug and alcohol use during pregnancy that he's got a 70 IQ. The only three words he can use to describe feelings are happy, sad and mad. He's incapable of such complicated subterfuge. Right now he's lying in bed unable to have a shirt on. He was raised in such a run down, filthy house that it all but destroyed his immune system. He lost part of his foot to flesh eating disease 3 years ago, and now has shingles. It's so painful he can't have anything touch his skin around his rib cage. It normally only gets people over the age of 65. He's 18. Well in age anyway, intellectually he's about 11.

 

Ma'm you're middle class. I would think if you live in a poor neighborhood you'd be able to see the difference between people like yourself and the poor.

 

 

 

I think that lillabet overreacted to you because she felt judged, when clearly, this is not the case. 

 

I don't feel judged, because I am middle class. I am not personally poor. FYI, using food stamps and section 8, darning socks and shopping at goodwill, things I and millions of middle class people have done and do, are not activities that define a person as poor.

 

I was offended for Zach's mother and people like her. As demonstrated by this thread, people like Catherine --the "just" -- will always have people to pat them on the back. And if they don't they at least have the consolation of personally knowing they are doing what is righteous in the eyes of God.

 

Nobody sticks up for the guilty. Nobody feels bad about talking down the "unworthy" poor - how selfish they are, what bad parents they are, etc.  They are the truly lonely ones in this world. The truth is Jesus is nearer to people like Zach's mother than anyone who has the comfort of being able to do the "right thing."

 

 

Wow you're cynical

 

Actually, whats cynical is thinking that drug addicts and poor people don't love their kids as much as "we" do.

 

The title of this thread -- can you kill a dead person? -- Catherine, is that because you would like to kill her? Utterly failing as a mother and dying without the respect of God or men - this is not punishment enough? Failing as a parent - maybe the people here have never done it - there is nothing more painful. But ... maybe she was some kind of daily-mass-attending devil, an animal, somehow less human than us good people right?

 

As Christians we have to assume she did the best she could and it just wasn't good enough.

 

In the end, no matter how horrible she seems to you, she is the person who gave you your children.

 

OK. So let me end by apologizing. I'm sorry. It's not my intention to be nasty to anybody or judge anybody. Obviously an overreaction.

I just -- I just was not willing to let this be a "wow, you sure are a great person Catherine, Zach's mom sure sucked" thread. That is TOO EASY a path for people who call themselves Christians. Christianity is about honoring the dignity of, and being respectful to, people who absolutely DO NOT DESERVE IT.  So ... It's not okay to diss the "unworthy" poor, especially not at Christmas. 

[Ice_nine]

I just -- I just was not willing to let this be a "wow, you sure are a great person Catherine, Zach's mom sure sucked" thread. That is TOO EASY a path for people who call themselves Christians. Christianity is about honoring the dignity of, and being respectful to, people who absolutely DO NOT DESERVE IT.  So ... It's not okay to diss the "unworthy" poor, especially not at Christmas. 

 

Think about it though, you're accusing other people (us middle-class whitebread types) of having a messiah-complex, but aren't you sort of doing the same thing? Coming to redeem us from our bourgeois fantasy land of what it means to "help the poor" and showing us "the righteous path" or . . . . something.

 

 

I've only skimmed this thread, to be fair. I don't have a real emotional stake in the conversation and I think you're making some good points (while the other side is making good points too).

 

I will admit the title of this thread was extremely bizarre and there's a lot of abrasiveness that's disconcerting. All this talk about what it means to be a Christian and we can't even treat people on the internet with a bit of kindness (I'm guilty of this as well).

 

Carry on  . . .

Edited December 20, 2013 by Ice_nine

[CatherineM]

She had 200 people at her funeral all singing her praises. Including her estranged husband that did time for raping one of their daughters, the son who liked to shoot up houses until he hit a pregnant woman, the son who is a cocaine trafficker, and the daughter who dyed her hair for the funeral because she is wanted by the police.

I do not want praise. I do what I do out of penance for an offence that is between me and my confessor. I intend to do this work until I die and then finish my penance hopefully in purgatory although I deserve worse.

By the way, I have a history of sticking up for the guilty. I used to volunteer my time to get people off death row. The guilty, not the innocent. The innocent have lots of people to help them. I dealt with the most disgustingly guilty people on the face of the planet. I never met a man on death row who was rich or sane and sober when they committed their crimes.

Zach's mom wasn't sane. She had bipolar and refused the free treatment that could have saved her kids from years of abuse. She chose to self medicate instead. I was out of line to say I wanted to kill her. I was upset and venting. I thought I picked a safe place to do that among friends. I forgot that most of my friends here are long gone and no longer come here. Now I remember why.

[CatherineM]

As to me being middle class, well, this whole thing was probably started because I got woke up at 4am. A homeless man had started a fire in our apartment vestibule with discarded fliers in a trash can. It set off the fire alarm in the building.

[AnneLine]

Thank you, Catherine, for being you, and warts and all.  Would that we all could do this.

 

I'm never at my best when someone wakes ME in the middle of the night.   AND... I'm also not at my best when I see something that makes me grumpy.  My spiritual director once pointed out that I can sound like an outraged lover.   Yup, heard a little of that in here too.....

 

BUT, now let's step back and look at this thread... really look at it.   The good, the bad and the ugly.  Because there is a little of all of that in here.

 

In my opinion, Phatmass SHOULD be a place where we can come and vent and hang out among friends.  And work out our salvation in fear and trembling.   Where we can be the people we really are, not plaster statues.  And not be afraid of being stomped upon.  No one should feel they have to be a super-human to post here.

 

In my opinion, some people really have gotten over-the-top and crawled down on others in this thread, and I don't find that a really Christian thing to do.  Really.  Every dang one of us has parts of ourselves that are broken, and I certainly have moments when my mouth goes off before my brain engages (or I do the same with my fingers...) and wish I could have phrased things better. (Heck, maybe this post is gonna prove one of them!)  And every one of us has learned the hard way that while we CAN make changes to threads, we can't change the headings.  So... yeah, Catherine, I think we can cut you a bit of slack for a venting title to a thread.  Can't we?

 

I'm not a mod, and maybe I should just report this thread, but I think it is important to say that I've been kind of shocked and saddened by the turns this thread has taken... and I'm not alone.   IceNine saw it, several people have PMed me about it.... and people are being hurt and scandalized by the way we are treating each other.  And several have said it makes them wonder why they come to Phatmass.  And that makes me sad.

 

It's one thing to say we don't understand, or that we don't agree, but I don't think dumping on each other does much good in the long run.  

 

Having said that, there have been several genuninely humble 'I went too far and I am sorry' comments... and that too is something we see to infrequently in this world... and is a good reminder to me to say those words when needed.  Thank you.  THAT is among the reasons why I come to Phatmass.

 

My husband once pointed out to me that part of the drama in Hamlet is that Hamlet doesn't just want to kill someone... he wants to do it when the person is in mortal sin.  Whatever our failings, whatever our brokenness, I'm not hearing ANY of us advocating that.... so maybe there is hope for all of us.    Praying for all of you; hope you do the same for me...

[Lilllabettt]

As to me being middle class, well, this whole thing was probably started because I got woke up at 4am. A homeless man had started a fire in our apartment vestibule with discarded fliers in a trash can. It set off the fire alarm in the building.

 

Once again, living in a crummy place is not what differentiates the poor from the middle class.

Let me give an example. Choosing to go for an advanced degree, for the pure enjoyment of learning, that is middle class.

Lacking the capacity to access available services, such as the food bank, that is being poor.

 

 

 

I'm not a mod, and maybe I should just report this thread, but I think it is important to say that I've been kind of shocked and saddened by the turns this thread has taken... and I'm not alone.   IceNine saw it, several people have PMed me about it.... and people are being hurt and scandalized by the way we are treating each other.  And several have said it makes them wonder why they come to Phatmass.  And that makes me sad.

 

 

You know I have been pm'd too. I am over-emotional right now but honestly push back on this thread was necessary and I dont think it would have happened if I hadn't said anything. Just head nodding with the OP. Of course anyone can screw up a thread title. Particularly someone who has been wronged by something/someone or loves someone who has been and they are pissed about it. OP has a right to be pissed. Not denying that. But the meaning of Christianity is being challenged to move beyond that.

 

Wouldn't it be great if showing disrespect to a dead drug addict was as socially unacceptable as racism? That will be the day when Jesus reigns.

[beatitude]

Lillabett, I think you've made important points here. I have a much older half-sister who had a very different kind of life and upbringing from the one I did, with an extremely abusive alcoholic mother, and there are many things about her and her relationship with her mum that I didn't understand. I used to be far too quick to judge her mum (understandably, as my first and only meeting with this woman was when she showed up at our house unexpectedly and violently assaulted my own mum - my sister dragged me into a cupboard to protect me). The thread has got too heated, but I just wanted to say that I don't find you cynical - you have given me a reminder that just because I can't see love in a particular person, that doesn't mean love is absent. It is a reminder that I happened to need tonight, for reasons quite unconnected to this topic.

[brandelynmarie]

CatherineM, I have wanted to kill dead people, too...for different reasons. And I understand you were just venting....

[Maggyie]

I come at this from a different perspective (maybe a less emotionally frought one). My husband and I are taking doing coursework at a local adoption nonprofit. Not an agency but a nonprofit that gathers all members of the adoption triad/constellation for learning and healing.

 

There are many different forms of adoption but for all, "dealing with the birthfamily aka first family" is a huge challenge (or opportunity). It is super hard from the perspective of someone who chooses to be the best parent possible, and who is parenting someone else's biological offspring, to resist criticizing the birth family and their choices. For some reason the anger and criticism tends to coalesce around the birthmom. One of the social workers told the group she thinks it's because we are still socially trained to think of parenting as the female thing and kind of subconsciously write the father off in terms of what he should be doing.

 

Anyway regardless of the circumstances, there's something to criticize. The middle class white teenager who placed her healthy newborn? She doesn't keep up with your openness agreement and acts like she is ignoring your kid - too busy being a kid herself and partying. The 40 year old woman from the barrio whose child was born addicted? Still ruining her life with drugs and really complicating your open adoption arrangement - how can you stand to let your kid be around her problems for even 30 seconds? The mom who lost her kids to foster care - her kids, your kids, bear the consequences of her lifestyle into adulthood. What a rancid witch - she wasn't content to destroy herself, she had to take innocent children down with her.

 

These are all normal thoughts to have (our facilitators say) but we have to acknowledge them and then tell the thoughts goodbye. First, because birthfamily will always be the child's first family; the child we love has their blood, looks at us with their birthfather's eyes, smiles with their birthmother's lips. That bond is forever and we can't heap scorn on the first family without the child perhaps silently picking up on it, realizing once again they come from a less than ideal situation and relating that to their own worth.

 

Secondly, because everyone has losses they are dealing with (losing a child to foster care or to adoption in general is a huge loss). And the adoptee experiences a huge loss too, because in spite of gaining stability they do lose the family that should have been able to welcome them and support them. And the adoptive parent is experiencing their own loss, whether that is through infertility or the loss of a childfree lifestyle or just not having the stress of adoption issues in their life. Every part of the triad brings GRIEF to the table and that can cause a lot of tough emotions. But the key is respect and not holding onto the other person's mistakes, even the BIG mistakes. It's not good for the adoptive parent... or for the adopted child... or for the first family. In the end it's toxic and damaging.

 

Catherine I know it's a bit different because your son is more of an adult at this point, and his first mom has passed (although it sounds like he does have some birth relatives somewhere?). But are there any post-adoption services available in your community to help you deal with this? We are getting services pre-adoption (we are not even in the mix yet) but they are so, so helpful. I am not diagnosing you over the internet but it sounds like you are struggling with grieving for the losses in your son's life.

[cmaD2006]

I'm not a mod, and maybe I should just report this thread, but I think it is important to say that I've been kind of shocked and saddened by the turns this thread has taken... and I'm not alone.   IceNine saw it, several people have PMed me about it.... and people are being hurt and scandalized by the way we are treating each other.  And several have said it makes them wonder why they come to Phatmass.  And that makes me sad.

 

One strong recommendation to all -- if there is a problem with the thread, either PM the original poster involved or hit the report button.  To hear that others are PMing each other back and forth instead of reporting is almost akin to gossip.  That's not good -- and it doesn't solve the problem  In fact -- it may escalate it.

 

As a mod ... I tried giving some leeway to this thread.  Just a bit -- realizing that both CatherineM and Lilllabettt are probably having a tough time for distinct reasons.

 

Please remember all of us are human, all of us have our tough days, and to give some slack.  It is right before the holidays when things do get heated up.  Family stuff seems to intensify.  And for those who are students -- final exams are either finishing up or have just finished.

 

Given the series of last posts I am closing the thread.  Please pray for all who have been involved in the thread, especially for those where a post may have touched a nerve.