Can You Kill A Dead Person?

[CatherineM]

I try really hard to not ever say anything bad to Zach about his mom or dad. Sometimes it is really hard. We've had him two years now. The longer he is with us, the more he lets his guard down and tells us things. This morning he came in my sewing room to borrow a cord, and saw the stack of presents I wrapped yesterday. He got an excited grin on his face like a 5 year old and tried to figure out what was in them. He said he couldn't because he didn't have any experience at guessing because he'd only gotten a present for two years growing up.

His mom lived a block away from Catholic a Charities. We have a Christmas Bureau that gives presents, a Santas workshop. Our knights of Columbus and Catholic Women's League collect them too. We even did a jesse tree thing. There was no reason for her not to have had presents for her kids. Maybe even give up drugs for a week to buy them all something at the dollar store.

We would have given him presents had we known. Our neighborhood is a combination of families that are very poor mostly due to addiction issues, new immigrants, and a new influx of rich urbanite types. I look around at the grocery store and wonder how many families are pretending to be okay. Was it pride or just not caring?

[AnneLine]

Catherine,  :heart:

 

You can't change the past; you ARE changing the present and future for a LOT of people.

 

Hold onto that.

 

Love Zach and Austin and all the other guys to pieces and do what you are doing -- see needs and meet them.

 

Would that we all might be as loving as you.

 

And I will pray for his mom... because whatever the reason, she was one sad lady, and certainly she and all the others like her need our prayers... and perhaps one of them will get a wakeup call and make that call today....

 

Blessings,

 

AL

[CatherineM]

I'm not sure what has made me sadder, that it happened, or that he doesn't realize yet how sad it is that it happened. When he has kids of his own, that's when it is going to hit him like a big boulder.

[AnneLine]

yeah.   :sad:

 

It is sad.  It just breaks my heart. 

 

But... he will also remember what you did for him... and that is what he will carry forward with his own kids.  That's the gift you are giving him, Catherine.   :console:

[Lilllabettt]

Honestly,  Catherine, the whole "whats in here? Oh I can't guess, cuz I didn't have presents growing up" thing seems pretty obvious and transparent to me.

For whatever reason, the kid wanted to tell you he didn't ever get presents. My guess is he knows exactly how sad it is and was either 1. trying to make you feel good or 2.make you feel sorry for him, for whatever reason.

 

So .. his mom. Maybe she did get him a dollar store present but didn't wrap it, or maybe she decided it was better for her to get her drugs that week rather than go through withdrawal at Christmastime. Maybe she was too sick to see straight. Who knows? The decisions poor people make, especially addicted poor people, seem to be nonsense and evil to middle class people with paid up health insurance. But poor people math is not middle class math, and 2+2 does not always equal 4.

 

Basically what I'm reacting to is you standing in the grocery store looking at the poor people wondering how many of them have too much pride or don't care enough to get their kids a Christmas present. I am probably over reacting. Let me give you some context; I just got done listening to a friend of mine rag on homeless people, cuz why don't they go to shelters? Just had my fill of middle class saviors ragging on the poor.

 

 

 

 

[AnneLine]

Hm... I see what you are saying Lillliabettt... and if it were ME reacting that way, it would be legit.

 

Not so sure how true that is about Catherine... who really has put her money where her mouth is by taking in a herd of people.  And she has a pretty good sense, from what I have seen, about cutting lose the losers.  But Christmas is a hard day for Zach..... mom died that day on top of everything, if I recall... so yeah, I think it is just a tough holiday for him. 

 

Hey, Catherine.... seems to me that Zach's reaction is kind of healthy in one sense... he's verbalizing it.  He must trust you a lot....

 

(danged typos!)

Edited December 19, 2013 by AnneLine

[Lilllabettt]

Hm... I see what you are saying Lillliabettt... and if it were ME reacting that way, it would be legit.

 

Not so sure how true that is about Catherine... who really has put her money where her mouth is by taking in a herd of people.  And she has a pretty good sense, from what I have seen, about cutting lose the losers.  But Christmas is a hard day for Zach..... mom died that day on top of everything, if I recall... so yeah, I think it is just a tough holiday for him. 

 

Hey, Catherine.... seems to me that Zach's reaction is kind of healthy in one sense... he's verbalizing it.  He must trust you a lot....

 

(danged typos!)

 

not talking about the kid. The kid is allowed to feel whatever he wants.

it's great to shell out money, open your home and your heart for the poor. Its wonderful. But it doesn't matter how much you do for the poor, you never earn the right to look down your nose and judge them. Not even becoming poor yourself and joining them gives you the right. No matter how selfish or ungrateful or lazy or just plain evil they seem.

why do poor people treat their kids like croutons? maybe they are slimebags, or maybe in their screwed up calculus (screwed up to middle class folk, anyway) its the best thing to do. The second option is the Christian one as far as assigning motives goes.

Edited December 19, 2013 by Lilllabettt

[Luigi]

Catherine -

 

No, you can't kill a dead person. And you can't kill the memory of her, either. You - that's the generic you - just have to find ways to still deal with her, even though she's already dead.

[AnneLine]

I see what you mean, Lillliabettt.   Good point.   "There but for the grace of God" does let us feel vastly superior.   Better for me to cultivate the 'hey, they're doing the best they can.... and I'll do what I can as well." 

 

I also do see the other side as well, and I know I sometimes can go to the, what the...????? response on auto pilot... less of a judgement than an out-loud musing....   

 

But what is going on in CatherineM's mind is in her mind....

 

:heart: you both.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

Honestly,  Catherine, the whole "whats in here? Oh I can't guess, cuz I didn't have presents growing up" thing seems pretty obvious and transparent to me.

For whatever reason, the kid wanted to tell you he didn't ever get presents. My guess is he knows exactly how sad it is and was either 1. trying to make you feel good or 2.make you feel sorry for him, for whatever reason.

 

So .. his mom. Maybe she did get him a dollar store present but didn't wrap it, or maybe she decided it was better for her to get her drugs that week rather than go through withdrawal at Christmastime. Maybe she was too sick to see straight. Who knows? The decisions poor people make, especially addicted poor people, seem to be nonsense and evil to middle class people with paid up health insurance. But poor people math is not middle class math, and 2+2 does not always equal 4.

 

Basically what I'm reacting to is you standing in the grocery store looking at the poor people wondering how many of them have too much pride or don't care enough to get their kids a Christmas present. I am probably over reacting. Let me give you some context; I just got done listening to a friend of mine rag on homeless people, cuz why don't they go to shelters? Just had my fill of middle class saviors ragging on the poor.

 

Lilllabettt, I understand--or think I do.

 

My first job out of college was in South Central LA, where ALL the kids were poor. I was a children's librarian. I would go to meetings of all the children's librarians in the City of LA, and the children's librarian's in middle class communities would suggest high-minded things such as setting  goals like parents reading with their children, going with the children to the library, helping with their homework. Those are great ideas. Yet, in my district, the mothers of the children were mostly single mothers, many of whom were working two or three jobs just to try to make sure their kids were fed and clothed. They wanted to do more--they truly loved their kids--but they were already stretched father than they could go.

 

As for the insidiousness of drugs, I saw that, too. It was hard for me to feel such overwhelming hurt for the children of these mothers that I it would limit my ability to help them. And yet, drug addiction is a disease, and there weren't the resources available for mothers to get the help they needed. Even if some resources were available, the drugs kept the mothers from thinking rationally. In the case of the neighborhood I worked in, there were Catholic churches nearby, and many mothers worked extra jobs so the kids could go to Catholic school (even though the mothers were not Catholic, they knew their kids needed the values and discipline of Catholic school). To give due credit, there were two non-Catholic Christian schools in my library's district, and they, too did wonders in giving the kids values and discipline, along with love and support. I know all this because part of my job was to visit every classroom of each of the elementary schools in my district at least twice a year. One year I visited 10,000 school children in their classrooms. Yes, my visits were only an hour long, but I hope I was able to communicate genuine caring for the children along with the wonders and fun of reading.

 

Pride was also a factor, although in my district, since EVERYONE was poor, it was less of a factor than I have seen in other situations.

 

I confess, pride is a huge issue for me. I used to be a financially successful professional, and now I am disabled, living on SS disability. I still live in a mostly affluent neighborhood, and pride keeps me from asking for help.  I don't want people to see that my house is messier than I want it to be--not because I am lazy or slovenly--but because I am just too sick to keep it up. People don't know about this because I am too ashamed to invite them into my house. Swallowing my pride has become one of the hardest lessons God has been desperately trying to teach me. I need to move next year, partly for financial reasons, and partly because I can no longer keep up my house. Yet, I am not old enough for a retirement community--both chronologically and emotionally. I wouldn't be happy in a retirement community, although I would love the help and desperately need community. The average age in the retirement communities near me is around 85. So, instead, I am trying to find SOMEPLACE, SOMEWHERE in the U.S. where I can find a community where I can also have help available, along sympathy and understanding--not judgement that someone my age should be doing better. (Sadly, several times when I have reached out for help I have gotten judgement instead.)  I am someone who, despite my physical issues, is still very high functioning intellectually, and I still can't find answers. How much harder is it for someone who has children to support or who doesn't have the intellectual resources I have?

 

Although we think of pride as a sin, it isn't always. It's a yearning for respect, understanding, people who care enough to DO something. It's easy to be on a church committee--and much harder to actually act and not be judgemental of the people you are supposedly trying to help. I have "fallen through the cracks" not only because of my age, and the nature of my disability, but also because I don't fit neatly into a specific religious congregation. I confess I also do have the sin of pride, which I continue to work on with God. I am telling you about my problems not because I am asking anything of ANY of you but prayer, or tying to get sympathy, but because I am trying too explain why I have become to sensitive and aware of the issues related to pride--defined in this case as being allowed to keep your self-respect and dignity. However, along with this, I have been praying for humility. 

 

Back to the original post. In the end, evil DOES exist. And, some parents do things to their children that are impossible for us to understand, despite the parents' personal situation.

 

Catherine--I see nothing wrong with feeling like you want to kill someone who has hurt someone you love, especially if the person you want to kill is already dead. I think most of us, if we are honest with ourselves, have felt at some point that we wanted to kill someone for what they had done to another person or multiple people. The good thing is that the vast majority of us would never actually act on our feelings of wanting to kill someone, no matter what the person did. If we all acted on our feelings of wanting to kill someone, the human race would be long extinct.

 

I have enormous respect for you taking on unwanted children, knowing how many health problems you and your husband already face every day.

 

For me, right now, the extent of my ability to take care of another of God's creations is limited to my cat, but God has let me know that that is sufficient for now, because it is all I am capable of at the moment, physically and emotionally. Before I adopted my little girl cat at age 2, she had been in four or five homes, and was about to be euthanized simply because her owners couldn't be bothered with a cat with chronic health problems. She was shy overall, and desperately afraid of children because she had been abused. Yet she is the sweetest, most loving cat I have ever met. 7 years after her adoption, my cat is as healthly as possible, is no longer shy and afraid, and runs my life (as most cats see as their responsibility). I did everything humanly possible for her adopted brother for 17 years, including love whenever he asked for it (and often when he didn't) until he died last spring. My male cat seemed to trust my love for him, even though I had to perform medical procedures on him every day for 18 months. During that time, he would never leave my side, day and night. I will do the same for my current cat when the time comes. She is God's creation, and thus, important to God, and I will do everything in my power to make sure she is happy, secure, healthy, and knows she is loved. (She is lying on my lap, purring loudly, as I write this.)

 

Catherine--The fact that you can give this kind of love to a young person who was mistreated both by his mother, and life in general, only increases my respect for you (and my respect  was already high to begin with).

 

You and your family are going to have SOOO much fun at Christmas!!!! In the midst of your sadness, I'm incredibly happy for you! Christmas is going to bring you and your husband (and your boys) SO much joy this year!

[cmaD2006]

I don't want to put words in Catherine's mouth ... but what I got is the frustration of seeing the deal that Zach had been given.  It seems like the whole package was a problem (i.e. the whole family situation that Zach was born into).

 

I can't blame you Catherine.

 

But -- I do get what Lilllabettt is saying too.  I came from a very poor family.  And one year, because there was no extra money (my dad had undergone a quadruple bypass that year), my Christmas gift was a stuffed mouse that wore a yellow dress.   I loved that thing, and probably cherished it more that most of my gifts because I knew the trouble my parents went through to even afford that much.  And yeah I also remember not going hungry, because we kept getting saved by the Thanksgiving basket that my school would send to our family (none of the kids knew we were a receipient).  And my clothes looked way out of style (think: polyester pants when jeans were in).  But I was loved and that's what counted the most :).

 

It is easy sometimes to judge if you're not in the situation.  But -- given Catherine's track record she can vent. :)

 

And well, Lilllabettt I'd be a bit hot too if someone said "why don't the homeless just go to a shelter".  Duh.  That doesn't solve the problem anyway.  And well, there are cities that don't HAVE enough beds for the homeless to begin with!  Oy.

 

[blazeingstar]

There are really 2 things here, one is being a jerk and a selfish parent, the other is being poor.  I think that we make it very easy for poor to not be selfish and be jerks.  They may have their own pride, but we, as a country, do alot for the poor around us.  Many, many people are grateful.

 

There is a duality here...someone who was very passionate about helping the poor in her neighborhood, someone who wanted a child to be made happy and have a gift.  Then we have a jerky, selfish, self-involved parent who couldn't be bothored to allow others to help her child.  

 

If Zach grew up extremely wealthy with parents who completely absentee and also forgot christmas, the devistation he feels emotinally would be no less.

 

I think that the "for years and years, I helped and did everything I could to help children like you" is extremely hard.

 

My mom talks about growing up with her adopted siblings and foster siblings all the time.  Even though they were 7 and 5 when they were rescued and given a stable home one of them continues to have some of the similar problems that caused him to be removed from his parent's care.  Its hard for my mom to see, when she, her parents and siblings poured out so much love to these children to show them how they should be treated to see them only grow and repeat this behavior.

 

It's like working at a school where wealthy parents refuse to let their child's eyesight be tested least they don't have perfect vision (and believe me, it happens).  There are SO MANY programs to help test if the child's parents are too busy, but this is purely on an astetic field.  They want their child to be pretty and they feel glasses aren't pretty (and the eye doctor won't prescribe contacts to a 6yo ---the gall)  There are selfish, horrible parents everywhere.

 

 

Catherine has every right to be angry at this woman for so hurting the wonderful young man she's come to love.  There isn't any excuse for doing NOTHING.  When my parents were young they collected 3 stuffed animals and a small action figure from the pick and take at the dump for christmas for us.  They had nothing to give, and they didn't want to ask for help...but they found a way.  I know parents who hid their young children's toys for several months (the kids were under 5) and then regifted them.  Parents who care find a way to do something

 

 

Oh and Iggy, your situation is unfortnatly not all that uncommon these days.  You may be entitled to a home health aid legally.  I have a friend who is 100% disabled and has a health aid paid for by state.  After 2 years of  a mixture of the good and the bad and the ugly her mother went through a year long certification and is now her health aid, but it is possible to have one.

[CatherineM]

I'm not sure where the idea came from that I was middle class. My dad only made more that $20,000 a couple of years towards the end of his working life. We lived in a house that was 800 sq. ft. cost $8000 and there was six of us. I know how much he made because I did my parents taxes from the age of 12 on.

I make $1500/month in a place where studio apartments routinely cost $1000/ month, and house right now four extra mouths to feed. I use the food bank. We get clothing from St. Vincent and the Marian Centre. What we can't get free, I make by hand. We don't have cable or other luxuries. The money that my books make mostly goes to charity. I may be the only person left on the planet who darns socks. I barter sewing for car repairs. I collect pop bottles for the money.

I don't look down my nose at anyone. Everyone around me is higher on the food chain than I am, so I couldn't if I wanted to. I knew Zach's mom well, for years. She attended daily mass with me. She obviously had demons that didn't show.

As to him doing that to get me to feel sorry for him, he is so brain damaged from her drug and alcohol use during pregnancy that he's got a 70 IQ. The only three words he can use to describe feelings are happy, sad and mad. He's incapable of such complicated subterfuge. Right now he's lying in bed unable to have a shirt on. He was raised in such a run down, filthy house that it all but destroyed his immune system. He lost part of his foot to flesh eating disease 3 years ago, and now has shingles. It's so painful he can't have anything touch his skin around his rib cage. It normally only gets people over the age of 65. He's 18. Well in age anyway, intellectually he's about 11.

[Anastasia13]

Does darning socks fix those balding spots so you can't feel the show again?

 

Also, :amen: I hope he gets better soon and the shingles pain subsides quickly.

 

You're like the movie The Yarn Princess but different.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

Note: I tried to edit my previous post, but for some reason the forum would not let me. Please read this post instead of my post above. Thank-you.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

Catherine--Please accept my humblest apologies. I made the same mistake with you that so many people make with me, that is, they assume that because I am well educated and usually somewhat articulate (although not nearly as articulate as you are) that I am middle class. I used to be middle class--heck, I used to be upper-middle class. No longer. I am poor. I am still learning to come to terms with this. It hurts a lot and makes me feel like a failure.

 

I, of anyone, should have known better than to make that error with you, and I hope you will forgive me.

 

I also realized in reading and participating in this thead (and some others) that since I have returned to Phatmass I have fallen into one of my "old ways" where I mistakenly thought I had improved. I have been giving advice to others and trying to "say things that help" to people, and in situations, where I have limited knowledge and don't know the person very well. I am old enough, and have experienced enough of this in my own life to know better than to impose myself on others. People often give me advice that is well-meaning but is totally "off the mark." In fact, sometimes, without the person knowing it, someone's "well-meaning" advice hits a subject of particular hurt to me, and makes things worse. I don't want to do that to ANYONE.

 

It is such a common thing in American culture to try to "fix" things for other people and make the hurt/fear/questions go away. Unfortunately, this is not how life and God works.

 

On Phatmass, at least, people's intentions are good. And, my intentions have been good when I have tried to help someone I didn't know very well. I want so much to feel needed that I forget humility, and that I can unintentionally either give bad advice or even cause someone more hurt or confusion than they are already feeling.

 

I won't be perfect in the future, but my intention is to listen more, and to give less advice, especially to people where I know only limited amounts about your situation--which is most of you. The best thing I can do right now for anyone on Phatmass is not to give advice, but to listen and pray and hug.

 

The is one thing I can give. In my aloneness right now, God has given me a gift that I don't appreciate enough--the gift of time. Right now, the rest of the world is rushing around buying presents, dealing with family, making Christmas wonderful for their children. In contrast, I have none of that. So, I do have time to listen. And, I will try very hard not to give advice, unlike many of my posts in the recent past, unless someone asks advice of me specifically. I will simply sympathize, not judge (who am I to judge ANYONE?), pray for you, and let you know you are not alone.

 

What I need from all of you is prayer and God will take care of getting me help. I also need real friends--not people who reach out to me because they want to help me, but people who genuinely enjoy my company and miss me when I am not there. This will not be everyone--it won't even be most people. If even one or two people become friends I will be enormously blessed versus my current situation. I know all the people on Phatmass pray--so pray for me. I don't care whether you are Eastern or Roman Catholic, whether you are NO or Traditionalist, I don't even care if you have doubts or questions, or if you are a non-Catholic Christian. I, for one, believe that God listens to prayer, and just as Jesus spent time with prostitutes and tax collectors, Christ listens to the prayers of those who are far from perfect, who have lots of questions, or who don't have what some would judge as a "good prayer life."

 

Thank-you for listening. Now I will stop hijacking Catherine's thread for my own needs, and let the topic go back to her.