Defeating " No Uterus, No Opinion"

[PhuturePriest]

What aspect of birth control? Legality? Morality? Who pays for it (ie. Obamacare)?

 

It's morality and legality.

[DiscerningCatholic]

My reaction to "no uterus, no opinion!" is "Oh, so women who have had hysterectomies and therefore cannot have children or know what it's like to be pregnant don't have an opinion on birth control and abortion?" 

 

Go where the logic will eventually take them.

[CrossCuT]

nvm.  :)

 

Im just trying to make people aware that not everyone thinks from the Catholic perspective. A lot of the stuff people will say makes total sense to a Catholic, but from someone who is secular or of a different religion they may not understand where youre coming from and visa versa. 

[Basilisa Marie]

You could talk about fatherhood, how men have an obligation to support women they impregnate, how a woman's choice to keep the baby can have lasting financial consequences for men, how men can support crisis pregnancy centers, how men contribute to a culture that makes it very hard for women to choose life... there are all sorts of things you can say.  There are more male lawmakers than female lawmakers. 

[Norseman82]

 

Contraception is hormonal....my goodness...there are men who may already be rendered infertile by the amount of contraceptives in drinking water...it totally affects you.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-105466/Fertility-timebomb-drinking-water.html

 

People have debated that there is a human contribution...but it's clear contraceptives either in humans or animals are causing horrible consequences.

 

DING! DING!  DING!   We have a winner!!

 

[media] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMN0SO3SHZ8 [/media]

[NotreDame]

Well, for abortion, I always argue along the lines of abortion is murder, because if you are debating murder, none of that gender stuff matters.  The minute you can get them to admit that killing a newborn is wrong, then they don't stand a chance if you know where to go from there.  However, you can get some the Peter Singer types (although these usually aren't women) that won't say that killing a newborn is wrong.

 

As for contraception?  Well, I wouldn't argue the morality or legality of contraception with someone until you get past the above argument.  Now if you are arguing who should *pay* for it?  That's a different story. 

[CrossCuT]

Well, for abortion, I always argue along the lines of abortion is murder, because if you are debating murder, none of that gender stuff matters.  The minute you can get them to admit that killing a newborn is wrong, then they don't stand a chance if you know where to go from there.  However, you can get some the Peter Singer types (although these usually aren't women) that won't say that killing a newborn is wrong.

 

As for contraception?  Well, I wouldn't argue the morality or legality of contraception with someone until you get past the above argument.  Now if you are arguing who should *pay* for it?  That's a different story. 

Just to be clear, contraception does not kill a child. Abortifacient do and they are very different in terms of medication and stuff girls get over the counter.  

So you cant really use the murder card when discussing contraception.

Edited December 18, 2013 by CrossCuT

[OnlySunshine]

Im just trying to make people aware that not everyone thinks from the Catholic perspective. A lot of the stuff people will say makes total sense to a Catholic, but from someone who is secular or of a different religion they may not understand where youre coming from and visa versa. 

 

That's why I erased what I said because I realized that's what you were getting at.  Sorry.  ;)

[blazeingstar]

Just to be clear, contraception does not kill a child. Abortifacient do and they are very different in terms of medication and stuff girls get over the counter.  

So you cant really use the murder card when discussing contraception.

Err.  If you believe in life at implanttation you are correct.  If you believe at life when sperm meets egg, you are incorrect.  With many regular oral contraceptives and implantation devices the hormones make the menstural wall so thin that a fertalized egg cannot implant.    Thats abortifacient...certinatly not as gruesome as those that do destroy a implated and growing fetus, but still really bad.

[CrossCuT]

Err.  If you believe in life at implanttation you are correct.  If you believe at life when sperm meets egg, you are incorrect.  With many regular oral contraceptives and implantation devices the hormones make the menstural wall so thin that a fertalized egg cannot implant.    Thats abortifacient...certinatly not as gruesome as those that do destroy a implated and growing fetus, but still really bad.

 

I 100% believe that life begins at conception. 

 

Go look up how contraceptives work Blazey. Contraceptives increase progestin which trick the body into thinking that its already pregnant thus halting the cycle. Even with emergency contraception (Plan B) does not kill an already fertilized egg, instead it works to prevent ovulation from occurring as well as thickening cervical mucus so that the sperm are unable to swim to meet the egg. Studies have shown that contraception prevents the egg from being fertilized however it is NOT effective after fertilization has occurred. It does not stop implantation, nor does it have any effect after implantation has occurred so in essence it does not cause an abortion. 

 

Now do not take this lesson as my support for contraception; Im merely trying explain how they work so that you can have better discussions with people.

 

However, as I said before, abortifacient WILL cause an abortion and are meant to be taken after fertilization has occurred for this reason.

[OnlySunshine]

I 100% believe that life begins at conception. 

 

Go look up how contraceptives work Blazey. Contraceptives increase progestin which trick the body into thinking that its already pregnant thus halting the cycle. Even with emergency contraception (Plan B) does not kill an already fertilized egg, instead it works to prevent ovulation from occurring as well as thickening cervical mucus so that the sperm are unable to swim to meet the egg. Studies have shown that contraception prevents the egg from being fertilized however it is NOT effective after fertilization has occurred. It does not stop implantation, nor does it have any effect after implantation has occurred so in essence it does not cause an abortion. 

 

Now do not take this lesson as my support for contraception; Im merely trying explain how they work so that you can have better discussions with people.

 

However, as I said before, abortifacient WILL cause an abortion and are meant to be taken after fertilization has occurred for this reason.

 

The highlighted portion is incorrect.  Contraceptives can and DO prevent implantation by making the uterus an inhospitable environment.

 

The Birth Control Pill is the most popular and widely used method of hormonal contraception. It involves taking a month-long series of pills—three weeks of pills containing hormones, and one without. This allows the woman to have a menstrual period. The Pill contains two synthetic hormones, progestin and ethinyl estradiol and has three mechanisms: 1) it prevents ovulation, 2) thickens the cervical mucus, which makes it harder for sperm to enter the uterus and 3) affects the endometrium or lining of the womb to make it more hostile to implantation. This means the tiny developing baby (embryo) cannot attach to the uterine lining and dies, which is a very early abortion. Even so, they define this as "preventing pregnancy."

 

 

http://www.lifeissues.org/abortifacients/

[Tony]

"Don't own a gun?  no opinion on gun control."

[PhuturePriest]

That was interesting. All day they kept saying the Church was sexist, but they refused to tell me how. I asked, and she said it was offensive to ask her that. I kid you not.

[CrossCuT]

The highlighted portion is incorrect.  Contraceptives can and DO prevent implantation by making the uterus an inhospitable environment.

 

 

http://www.lifeissues.org/abortifacients/

 

This thought is completely understandable and not uncommon. The site you linked is a prolife site and thats perfectly fine, but you need to be aware that they are not looking for anymore reasons to dislike contraception any less so there will be a small bias. 

 

I looked at the link you provided (its a hefty document!!!) but I did a word search for all the locations where "implantation" was used just to find the info I wanted easier. If you do that, you will find a contradiction to the summary on the main site page that you linked. That means whoever wrote that summary is not taking into consideration all the facts...they simply took the parts they linked and used that to make claims. 

 

Here are quotes from the document you linked:

 

 

ECPs may act by impairing endometrial receptivity to subsequent 

implantation of a fertilized egg.55,58,59,60 However, other more recent studies have found no 

such effects on the endometrium.5

 

The reduced efficacy with a delay in treatment, even when use is adjusted for cycle day of 

unprotected intercourse,43 suggests that interference with implantation is likely not an 

inevitable effect of ECPs. If ECPs did prevent all implantations, then delays in use should not 

reduce their efficacy as long as they are used before implantation.80 

 

ECPs do not interrupt an established pregnancy, defined by medical authorities such as the 

United States Food and Drug Administration/National Institutes of Health86 and the American 

College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists87 as beginning with implantation. Therefore, ECPs 

 

are not abortifacient.

 

Again,Id like to stress that I am NOT a contraception supporter I am merely providing information so that we can all have better and informed conversations with people when these topics come up. The issue can still be argued that it PREVENTS a life that would have occurred even if it does not END it. And isnt that good to know? That contraception is not directly causing abortions?

 

Another key thing to remember is that while contraception does not cause early abortions, abortifacients (which is the huge title of the page you linked me) DOES cause early abortions...thats its purpose. 

 

The only stipulation with the implantation issue is that certain contraceptives do decrease the thickness of the endometrium by 0.6 to 2.2 mm however there is no evidence at this time to suggest that this prevents implantation. As as the article above states that if implantation was a mechanism in how the contraceptives work then forgetting to take your pill for a day would NOT result in a pregnancy...but it happens. 

[CrossCuT]

Also something you can tell a contraceptive supporter is that the World Health Organization has released studies that show contraception slightly increases the chances of breast cancer a few other cancers, HOWEVER they claim the benefits (avoiding pregnancy) outweigh the negatives (cancer risk). Of course that is completely relative considering contraception is not the ONLY method of avoiding pregnancy. There are natural and healthy ways of doing it so that arbitrary claim of pros and cons is irrelevant in my mind. 

 

But if youre going for ease and convenience, that WOULD be a mild benefit for contraception...but I still wouldnt take it.