Scenario: How Would You React?

[NotreDame]

While its under the umbrella of "rites" it is a very different set of core beliefs and practices that look FAR different from each other.  Barring the Real Presence, Anglicans are closer to Latin churches than are Eastern ones. There are very big differences in traditions and practice and dogma

 

No.

 

They have different traditions, but they are the same religion. If Byzantines didn't believe in the Dogmas of the Church, I don't believe they would be allowed to go under the title of "Catholic".

 

Yes.

[Winchester]

Okay.

[Ed Normile]

I am a father who just had my daughter get married. How would I react, I would tell them both together, at the same time, you have a lot of things you need to be certain about before you make any decisions concerning the rest of your life. You need to know whether or not you could afford to help each other support your home, to do this you need to know what your vocation would be and plan accordingly, and in those plans you would have to take into consideration the possibility that God will bless you with children. You both need to know that most failed marriages happen due to monetary problems, you need money to live, eat and support children and it would be irresponsible for you to consider marriage without knowing how you will provide for your home. You can live with less and scrimp and save with a limited budget and get by, but you both would have to be willing to do that to be happy and have a good life. Whatever you both decide I will back you and help you to the best of my ability and as I only want the best for my daughter you could be the richest or poorest man in the world as long as you love, respect and take care of my daughter I will be there for you and I will wish you the best.

 

ed

[Winchester]

That's dumb.

[Basilisa Marie]

 

Just to slightly clear things up, discerning = "Most likely going to end up in the seminary at some point. Married or unmarried is the question."

 

This clears a lot of things up for me. Priesthood is obviously more important to the person in question than marriage.  Even if he were to try to do both at once, there will be many, many times when one will have to "trump" the other.  Which one? Will she be okay with what's chosen, particularly if it's priesthood things? And I second what others said about people reacting to a bi-ritual family; being bi-ritual can be challenging, but being the community's priest on top of it? I wouldn't be comfortable with that. Other people might though. 

[Byzantine]

Thanks guys. That gives a lot to think about. Just replying to two of them for now, but I've read all of them and thank you.

 

Actually it's because I am good friends with a Melkiate Catholic who's daughter married a Roman Catholic and is often forced to go to Roman Catholic Mass to meet his obligation.  He's the one who expressed frustration that they were inherently different religions even tho they are under the same umbrella.  I imagine this would go double for someone in a rite with married priests.

Smack him upside the head and tell him to get his act together.

 

So ... does that mean that the boyfriend needs to marry before becoming a priest? Yup.

 

It does make a difference -- if he is willing to chance that a dispensation isn't granted for him to become a priest and is in love with the girl regardless, this says mountains.

 

Now ... if it is more like if I can't get a dispensation then I won't marry so that I can be a priest -- that's another story.

 

I'm sorta confused about the dispensation part. (And yes I understand we're talking a different rite here :) ).

In the USA, Eastern Catholics need dispensations from Rome before ordaining a married man to the priesthood. This has developed after a brief but painful history that ended up in the formation of a new Orthodox jurisdiction in the early 20th century.

[CrossCuT]

Maybe Im a jerk or just a Roman Catholic but it feels to me like he is trying to exploit the dispensation...maybe thats a strong word but do you know what i mean? Maybe in his rite it isnt an exploit but it feels that way to me.

"I can be married AND be a priest, do biggy. Ill just get a dispensation."

 

I feel like thats not the right mentality.

[NotreDame]

In the USA, Eastern Catholics need dispensations from Rome before ordaining a married man to the priesthood. This has developed after a brief but painful history that ended up in the formation of a new Orthodox jurisdiction in the early 20th century.

 

How common is this now?  I know my first two ukranian rite parish priests were married, but at least one was ordained over in the old country.  None at that parish have been married since.  And at my second parish, which was Byzantine, I never even heard of a married byzantine rite priest.  It was my impression even the Eastern Rite priests don't get married in the USA anymore. 
 

[NotreDame]

Actually it's because I am good friends with a Melkiate Catholic who's daughter married a Roman Catholic and is often forced to go to Roman Catholic Mass to meet his obligation.  He's the one who expressed frustration that they were inherently different religions even tho they are under the same umbrella.  I imagine this would go double for someone in a rite with married priests.

 

It's possible he's being a bit silly and doesn't understand his religion.  It's also possible he just goes to Roman rite parishes with really, really bad Sunday Novus Ordo masses (which is probably around 90% of them IMHO.)  

 

Think of an eastern rite mass  as an EF high mass.  Lots of singing, responses are chanted.  It's long, reverent, nothing hokey like eucharistic ministers or communion in the hand or Disney-style praise songs - no instruments either, usually.  People know each other, actually like each other, get coffee and donuts afterwards, etc. 

 

After going to Eastern Rite masses your whole life, rolling into your average OF mass on a sunday would be rough.

[blazeingstar]

Smack him upside the head and tell him to get his act together.

 

Seriously?  He's a Medical doctor and a studied theologian with 9 children he is a great guy.  He knows the difference in theology and said it out of protection for his daughter.  He showed me how the different traditions while under the guise of "rites" to preserve the Eucharist, and sees the damage marrying outside your rite has caused his family. (He's one of 11). 

 

It is not easy to be Catholic in this world even if "Catholic" means the exact same thing to both members of the couple.  Hardcore TLM's who marry (if they choose to) OF members often have big struggles even tho they are in the same rite!!!!  This is pressure that a new marriage doesn't need and should be approached with the same caution as marrying someone in a different religion as high Anglican Masses are far closer to TLM than the OF is...and can easily cause compromise in an answer outside of the Catholic church.

 

There are so many child-raising issues even in TLM vs OF.  Head covering, alter servers, version of scripture, language, music, etc.  This is only magnified by being in a different rite. 

 

If the children have a priest for a father, you have to realize they very well may never be accepted by Roman Catholics due to both misinformation and that many strongly believe there should be no married priests, period.  The woman would be basically giving up her rite.

[blazeingstar]

It's possible he's being a bit silly and doesn't understand his religion.  It's also possible he just goes to Roman rite parishes with really, really bad Sunday Novus Ordo masses (which is probably around 90% of them IMHO.)  

 

Think of an eastern rite mass  as an EF high mass.  Lots of singing, responses are chanted.  It's long, reverent, nothing hokey like eucharistic ministers or communion in the hand or Disney-style praise songs - no instruments either, usually.  People know each other, actually like each other, get coffee and donuts afterwards, etc. 

 

After going to Eastern Rite masses your whole life, rolling into your average OF mass on a sunday would be rough.

 

I've been to Melkiate, Low Latin Mass and High Latin Mass and I worship in the Ordinary form.  I would have serious concerns about marrying someone who does not worship in my rite.  It could cause a lot of heartbreak.  I can't fathom going to Melkiate, Low Latin Mass or High Latin Mass for the rest of my life, I'd be devastated.  To me, it is dark, overly solemn, very exclusinary and even though I understand a decent amout of Latin, off putting that it's in a different language.  Parishioners tend to be very holy-roller, too, which dosn't help.

 

A person raised in those, on the other hand, would probably struggle with the OF.  You're right it would be rough...and to ask my spouse to attend Mass with me on a regular basis would be alot to ask of him.  It would be too difficult to do dual parishes once children come.  I firmly believe in having a parish home.

 

Yes, many OF masses are bad, but that's really not the fault of OF masses.  I've found that TLM are often WAY closed off and elitist and prone to their own abuses.  Abuses come from priests and parishoners not following the church and I find the OF "full of abuse" claim as bad and as vicious as Windows VS Mac debate.

[MIKolbe]

Okay, this might belong in VS, but here goes. Just want to see the reactions.

 

Your daughter, who is in college with a non-money-making major (theology, history, Humanities and Catholic Culture, etc, you get the idea) is introducing boyfriend, who has a similar sort of major. Naturally, you want to know what sort of plans he has to take care of your daughter should this lead toward marriage, so you ask. He explains to you that he's discerning a call to the priesthood and, responding to your quizzical look, says that he's of the Byzantine Rite and with a dispensation his bishop could ordain him a married priest. When asked how likely it is that he would get said dispensation, he replies that he doesn't know. When you ask how many such dispensations have been issued, he again doesn't know. When you ask what he would do if he didn't get said dispensation, he replies that he'd probably teach religion/Latin/history in a (most likely Catholic) high school.

 

AAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnddddddd react.

 

[HisChild]

Well hmmm. I've been to ordinary form Mass, low Latin, high Latin, Byzantine Rite and full Orthodox liturgy. For those I've met and/or know who have also experienced (more than once or twice) other Rites, their attitudes are NOT ambivalent. There's a reason they chose the Rite (or in the case of the Eastern Orthodox, the religion) they did. These two young people are of different Rites? Is she all right with changing Rites? I don't know if this was mentioned before but I'm pretty sure, because she'd be his wife, she would be required to officially change Rites. I was never asked to when I made a Byzantine parish my home 5 yrs ago. I was told could be known as Roman Rite while attending, but could if I felt called to do so. (I'm no longer there as I moved out of the area, so that issue became moot for me.) I know for Orthodox men who aspire to the priesthood, their wives are required to also be fully Orthodox. I have good friends who were raised Eastern Catholic, but now he (the husband) is Orthodox. He's a deacon...and cannot be ordained a priest unless his wife converts. She's still E. Catholic.

One other thing you should ask of your daughter is if she's aware of her own potential time commitment to her parish. I do know not know well the priest's wife's role in Eastern Rite churches. But I do know four matushkas/presvyteras... Eastern O. wives. All but one are intimately involved in the parish, ie: choir director, Sunday school director, etc. a priest's vocation is a family affair, at times. Is she all right with that, should she be asked to assume an active role where he serves?

Just thoughts...

[Basilisa Marie]

Maybe Im a jerk or just a Roman Catholic but it feels to me like he is trying to exploit the dispensation...maybe thats a strong word but do you know what i mean? Maybe in his rite it isnt an exploit but it feels that way to me.

"I can be married AND be a priest, do biggy. Ill just get a dispensation."

 

I feel like thats not the right mentality.

 

Yeah, that's why I'd like to find out what the normal dispensation reasons are. Are they more there for people who convert from Orthodoxy and want to remain a married priest in the Byzantine Rite? Even Romans give dispensations for Protestant converts who are married pastors and want to be priests (not common at all, but it happens).  Dispensations are usually created for extra-ordinary situations, because the norms are there for a reason, and should be followed unless there's a very good reason not to.  

 

And to those who say that changing rites isn't changing religion - While it's theologically true that it's the same religion, in one's day to day life there are a lot of differences between Latin parishes and other kinds. When I've visited my local Maronite and Byzantine churches, it almost feels like a different religion, if I'm not paying close attention to what's going on. There seemed to be lots of little cultural differences too, because the Maronite parish served a very strongly Lebonese community. I've been to a Greek Orthodox church, and they had far more in common with the Eastern Rites than the Eastern Rites did with the Latin, at least judging by liturgy and whatnot.  My experiences are limited, but I'd guess that they're similar to at least some other areas of the country. 

[NotreDame]

Yeah, that's why I'd like to find out what the normal dispensation reasons are. Are they more there for people who convert from Orthodoxy and want to remain a married priest in the Byzantine Rite? Even Romans give dispensations for Protestant converts who are married pastors and want to be priests (not common at all, but it happens).  Dispensations are usually created for extra-ordinary situations, because the norms are there for a reason, and should be followed unless there's a very good reason not to. 

 

There has been a long early tradition of celibacy in the Church, but also an early tradition of married clergy.  The Eastern Rites (which in some cases left with the orthodox and re-joined Rome later) in many cases never dropped the tradition of married pastors.  Parish priests in these rites could often be married and but only serve as parish priests while celibacy was reserved for monks and the hierarchy (ie. bishops.)

 

And back to the whole "different rites are almost different religions" thing people keep bringing up.  As someone that was baptized ukranian, raised in a byzantine Church (because we moved), then attending almost exclusively roman rite (often in Spanish)... I don't see it this way and I think it's a very imprecise way of explaining the gap.  I think the divide you are seeing isn't religious so much as it is cultural or experiential.

 

I know there are people from my Ukranian parish that would see going to a roman rite as a huge deal, but they are Ukranian and speak Ukranian as their first language and, from a cultural standpoint, would not feel comfortable.  They had a son that got married and changed to Russian Orthodox (I know he became a deacon and think he wanted to become a priest.)  His mother wasn't bothered so much by him becoming Orthodox as by the fact that he joined up with the Russians (Catholic Uki's don't like Russians.)

 

So on paper these rites are all the same religion and dogmas.  To say otherwise is just false.  However, the cultural divides are great and sometimes significant.

Edited December 17, 2013 by NotreDame