Santa Claus

[CatholicsAreKewl]

 

 

This is a very slippery slope blazeing. Card tricks will become cheating and puppet shows will become lies (the puppets aren't actually talking, but you're making it seem like they are!). Even songs about things that didn't happen will become lies. After all, the song is either true or it is not.

 

 

 

Just to be clear, this is a moral question discussed among magicians. There are performers that claim their illusions are the products of supernatural abilities. Let's take the example of psychics who ostensibly talk to the dead using tricks employed by mentalists. They defend themselves by claiming they are lying to people to comfort them. This example more closely parallels parents telling their children that a made-up character exists to help them enjoy the holiday season. Though the Santa myth is harmless in comparison, it doesn't take away from the fact that it's still a lie. 

 

Imagine if you could convince an adult that Santa existed. If you chose to do this, would you be lying? I think it would be interesting to discuss why age matters. 

 

Edited December 13, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl

[Slappo]

There are magicians that claim their illusions are the products of supernatural abilities. Let's take the example of psychics who ostensibly talk to the dead using tricks employed by mentalists. They defend themselves by claiming they are lying to people to comfort them. This example more closely parallels parents telling their children that a made-up character exists to help them enjoy the holiday season. Though the Santa myth is harmless in comparison, it doesn't take away from the fact that it's still a lie. 

 

Imagine if you could convince an adult that Santa existed. If you chose to do this, would you be lying? I think it would be interesting to discuss why age matters. 

 

You just jumped from my example of card tricks all the way to psychics.

 

 

I've never advocated convincing children Santa exists. 

 

What I'm saying is pretending with your child (as a fantasy, not a reality, your child knows the reality that he is fictional), and doing things like setting out milk and cookies is not lying.

[Slappo]

BlazeingStar, the implications involved in calling pretend play lying to children are so egregious that further conversation is pointless if you can't come to terms with the errors in that idea.

 

 

That idea goes so much beyond believing or not believing in santa claus that we can't really begin to discuss santa. With the mindset you have of what is and is not a lie there is no room for debate on santa or the level in which parents should/shouldn't let their children believe or pretend in his existence.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Slappo

[CatholicsAreKewl]

You just jumped from my example of card tricks all the way to psychics.

 

 

I've never advocated convincing children Santa exists.

 

For my example to make sense, you would need to consider that mentalists are also magicians who often use card tricks in their routines. Look up Uri Geller. He used simple magic tricks to convince people he had supernatural powers. Perhaps I'm not being clear by offering these examples. A magician is not lying when he performs a magic trick unless she/he tells the audience that it's more than a simple trick. 

 

What I'm saying is pretending with your child (as a fantasy, not a reality, your child knows the reality that he is fictional), and doing things like setting out milk and cookies is not lying.

 

Sorry If I misinterpreted your position. I was confused because I didn't think this would be the case for most children. 

Edited December 13, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl

[tinytherese]

What I think the people on here are having an issue with is Blazeingstar's belief that adults playing pretend with children such as talking on a toy phone is lying because the phone isn't real.

[blazeingstar]

BlazeingStar, the implications involved in calling pretend play lying to children are so egregious that further conversation is pointless if you can't come to terms with the errors in that idea.

 

 

That idea goes so much beyond believing or not believing in santa claus that we can't really begin to discuss santa. With the mindset you have of what is and is not a lie there is no room for debate on santa or the level in which parents should/shouldn't let their children believe or pretend in his existence.

No, there really isn't room for a debate.  I think that many parental actions to appease children (and those other adults who care for children) are lies.

 

If you seriously believe that it is ok to set out a plate of cookies with your children so a fictitious man can eat them, (and have them be gone in the morning) and don't think that's lying I'm not sure what would qualify as lying to you when it comes to your children.  For instance if you can perceive the light turning yellow for the opposite flow of traffic, do you tell your child you have magical powers to turn the light green?  To them it would be a fun game...but it is really lying as you don't have magical powers but rather are using logic.  Wouldn't you rather teach your child to be observant and use reason?  There are already wonderful, sacred things that are to be a mystery....and I think that fostering santa and other made up games cheapens mystery and turns it into a childrens game.

 

 

I draw a stricter, tighter line.  I think that adults, while fostering imagination, should be careful to avoid participation in any fantasy games in which one of the main tenants is to deceive the child.  To me this starts with something glaring, like Santa, and does often skirt into the territory of plastic phones and empty cups.

[Luigi]

No, there really isn't room for a debate. Then why did you post this topic to the Debate Table? You really should have posted it to the I've Found the Everlasting Truth Table, or at least the Lecture Table.  I think that many parental actions to appease children (and those other adults who care for children) are lies.

 

If you seriously believe that it is ok to set out a plate of cookies with your children so a fictitious man can eat them, (and have them be gone in the morning) and don't think that's lying I'm not sure what would qualify as lying to you when it comes to your children.  For instance if you can perceive the light turning yellow for the opposite flow of traffic, do you tell your child you have magical powers to turn the light green?  To them it would be a fun game...but it is really lying as you don't have magical powers but rather are using logic.  Wouldn't you rather teach your child to be observant and use reason?  There are already wonderful, sacred things that are to be a mystery....and I think that fostering santa and other made up games cheapens mystery and turns it into a childrens game.

 

 

I draw a stricter, tighter line.  I think that adults, while fostering imagination, should be careful to avoid participation in any fantasy games in which one of the main tenants is to deceive the child.  To me this starts with something glaring, like Santa, and does often skirt into the territory of plastic phones and empty cups.

 

 

I'm sure you're right, dear, and we're all wrong. Take comfort in that. 

[PhuturePriest]

I don't feel anything I said was attacking him.  I did tell him some truths, however.

 

 

Seriously?  I didn't say anything that he didn't willing walk into.

 

Ooh, kitty scratches.

 

My intelligence is a matter of opinion, actually, so no, it wasn't a "truth". Doesn't saying an opinion is a truth constitute as a lie, thus causing your uptight brain to explode in a bajillion pieces?

[havok579257]

Seriously? I didn't say anything that he didn't willing walk into.

Oh so now its his fault you insulted his intellegence. Yeah, very christian like.

[Basilisa Marie]

So, uh, what's the point of all this? If you're trying to convince us that pretending about Santa is a lie and that we shouldn't do it, you'd be better off to adjust your tactics.

[PhuturePriest]

So, uh, what's the point of all this? If you're trying to convince us that pretending about Santa is a lie and that we shouldn't do it, you'd be better off to adjust your tactics.

 

Obviously, telling people they are lying to their children by playing games with them and insulting their intelligence is the way to convince people to change their minds. Everyone knows that.

[sixpence]

Not allowing children to figure out some truths on their own seems sort of over-protective and coddling. How are they supposed to develop their reasoning skills if you don't let them try to figure out how a trick is done (like with the yellow light).  It seems like you must have a very low opinion of their intelligence if you think they wouldn't be trying to figure out how you actually did it, and if you want to be picky about it, you don't have to imply magic at all. You can say "I bet I can tell you exactly when the light will turn" and they will be just as amazed and start trying to use reasoning to figure it out.

[BG45]

So, funny story y'all.  My friend Dr. C. and I were eating lunch together today and the whole Santa thing came up somehow.  His son gets gifts from mom and dad (Dr. C. and his wife), Santa, and Cthulhu.  They started the lattermost as a gag one year, and their little kid loved it so much that they've continued it, even though his son knows Cthulhu isn't real.  Edit:  Yes, these are the same Mormons I game with lol. 

[Slappo]

Interesting newspaper editorial on the subject: http://juneauempire.com/opinion/2013-12-25/yes-virginia-there-santa-claus. It is a letter responding to an 8 year old's child question "is there a santa claus?"

 

There's a snippet below

 

... Yes, VIRGINIA, there is a Santa Claus. He exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! how dreary would be the world if there were no Santa Claus. It would be as dreary as if there were no VIRGINIAS. There would be no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The eternal light with which childhood fills the world would be extinguished. ...

 

Edited December 25, 2013 by Slappo

[Slappo]

I should say it's a fun read. Not necessarily something I entirely agree with but... was fun to read.