Phatmass Book Club

[ChristinaTherese]

I've read it, but it probably wasn't the best time and it was right after a book that was so wonderful that this one just couldn't compare. (Thanks, DtA!)

[maximillion]

I've read it.

 

 

 

Don't know what to say except maybe:

 

It took me six hours to read, so is judged by the maxi score as very light (in substance).

I agree with what BasilisaMarie said about Gus' gift to Hazel. He saw her, and that permitted  her to see a bigger picture of her self. She stepped outside the illness a bit.

I found lots of what was said about having a terminal illness ( yup, I have! But I got better against all the odds and against the prognosis) very true. People do treat you differently simply because of the illness and they somehow stop seeing you as the person you are.It's hard not to take on that ID.

Would I have had sex if my lover was about to die? Seriously? Don't know. I can say all sorts about that but until/unless I am in that situation it is mere speculation.

I think given today's culture the book reflects that culture. Most people wouldn't be surprised by the physical stuff, in fact they would think that was normal.

 

I liked the philosophy references. It made the book a bit different.

I looked at all of his other books after I read this and rejected them all.......maybe that says something about me more than it does about the writer or the books.

[maximillion]

The ending?

 

Your joking me right?

 

 

 

I saw that as an authors ploy. John Green did the same in his story as the author in the book does. 

 

What do folks think of Green doing that?

[AnneLine]

I am going crazy watching this thread grow and not letting myself look at it.  I am HOPEFUL of finishing by tomorrow night!!!!!    Looks like you must be having a wonderful discussion!  I hope so!!!!!

[Basilisa Marie]

The ending?

 

Your joking me right?

 

 

 

I saw that as an authors ploy. John Green did the same in his story as the author in the book does. 

 

What do folks think of Green doing that?

 

Well, I think it was appropriate. It's a story about their relationship - it begins right before Hazel meets Gus, and ends with Hazel making a symbolic statement of how she views her relationship with Gus. I think the "i do" statements are supposed to evoke marriage symbolism, whether it be the simple "til death do us part" or that she feels like someone who has just lost a spouse. I know it all sparked a lot of controversy when the book first came out. 

 

Edit: John Green's said about the subject: ""Shakespeare's comedies end in marriage and his tragedies end in death, and I was rather fond of the idea that my book could end (symbolically, at least) in both."

Edited February 22, 2014 by Basilisa Marie

[maximillion]

Yes, good points Basilisa........

 

So JG said that. I didn't look further than my own presumption that it was an echo of the author in the book.

 

I wasn't either surprised or disappointed by it and am a little surprised to hear it was a bit controversial.

 

One could presume that Hazel died - she said often that she was terminal.

But then, so was I , and here I am. Soooo........

[Ice_nine]

So because I'm a theology nerd, what did you guys think of the way he portrays religion in the book? John Green studied to be an Episcopal priest and was a chaplain for a while before he quit and became an author.  

I personally feel that the way he writes the "literal heart of Jesus" scenes makes it seem like he's saying that there are all kinds of ways people try and cope with impending death and loss and suffering, and the only thing that really works is companionship. There's this idea of people accompanying others while they experience great suffering that's really prevalent in a lot of liberation theology (the good kind, not the crazypants kind), similar to Simon helping Jesus carry the cross. I would have really liked there to have been at least one character who took a more religious way of dealing with their suffering, in a way that was respectful. I got the impression that he's saying (whether intentionally or unintentionally) that religion is only effective at helping people with suffering if it provides the setting for companionship to happen -- much like how the 'literal heart of Jesus" was nothing more than the setting for the support group. Patrick is kind of religious, but he comes off as very shallow and disingenuous to me - like the guy who runs around thinking trite sayings like "oh just offer it up!" are going to help you flip a switch and suddenly deal with your suffering better. I also think Patrick represents the author, how he saw himself as a minister. 


 But then I always want more authentic religious characters in my literature, because I have a personal axe to grind against our culture disrespecting anyone who is any kind of person of serious faith, no matter the religion. :)

 

I couldn't have said it better myself, spot on. However, since we're dealing with teens, I don't think there's a lot of that authentic religion going on with kids trying to figure out who they are and how they fit in and all. Especially with the way religion is watered down "marketed" to teens nowadays I think it tends to produce a dichotomy between those who are religious (go to youth group, have all the snappy slogans etc) and those who think it's all a bunch of bs (either because they see through the shallow marketing strategy or b/c they lack the depth to care about religion/death/becoming a good person. I think Gus and Hazel would fall into the former). So long story short, I think Green's portrayal of religious folk accurately reflect the culture given the age group we're dealing with. Make sense?

 

The ending?

 

Your joking me right?

 

The ending didn't really bother me. I was half expecting Green to end in the middle of the sentence and I woulda been like "zomg that's so lame," so in comparison the ending that Green used wasn't so sudden. I more expected Hazel to die before Gus since she was terminal and he was supposedly "lucky" with his osteosarcoma (minus the amputation). Since I was always anticipating Hazel's ultimate demise I didn't really care so much that her story ends there. Especially since I found Gus's death to be emotionally draining.

 

Speaking of his death I found it to be portrayed very realistically. Even though I think the pair did love each other it's not like she was by his bedside during his final moments, and I found that Hazel's dealing with that anticipation and her interactions with her own family during that time to be the most heartwrenching part of the story.

 

 

 

 

Did the dialogue bother the hell out of anyone else? I mean I know these kids were smart but their vocabulary was just super-inflated to me. In high school I didn't know a single person who talked like they did in conversation (maybe some people in college, but they would sound super pretentious). I just have a hard time buying their dialogue as something realistic for teens. Maybe I'm alone here.

[AnneLine]

Well... FINALLY got the book read!!!!  and will get a chance later tonight to read the thread and then I will chime in!!!  :)

[AnneLine]

Well... I finished the book early this evening, but I only have a few minutes for some first thoughts.. I want to think about it a little before I respond more fully... probably will be ready to discuss more at some point over the next few days.

 

I think it was an excellent book, and a big thanks to those who suggested and pushd for it.   I'm still a little blown away by the book on a few levels... so much so that they really distracted me from the story itself.  I almost need to go back and re-read sections to get the story line.

 

I think parat of the reason I was so disconcerted was that I knew nothing about it (until the movie clips), but once I realized what it was about, I was rather startled because I knew I would be in-the-middle of the story on a whole lot of levels.  

 

First level -- as some of you may know, my husband, Mr. AL, was diagnosed with Stage 3 cancer in 2001 (and thank God now is over 10 years cancer-free).   But I can attest to the sorts of things Augustus implied - you are NEVER the same after that diagnosis.  Even if it doesn't come back.   The stuff that seemed so important... now is rubbish.  Your priorities shift.  Just like after any other kind of trauma.

 

Mr. AL's prognosis was NOT good at first, and when it was suggested to Mr AL that maybe we might want to attend a colorectal cancer support group, he asked me what I thought.  My initial blunt reaction was... "My first thoughts?  I think we'll be going to a lot of funerals.... and I think we'll be in for a whole lot of uncomfortable moments.   But we wanted to have the best info about how to deal with this thing, so we decided to go to the group.   And yes, over the years we have gone to a LOT of funerals.... but we got so much excellent info and met such fantastic (albeit only too human) people, we both are very glad we attended.  If it had been ANYTHING like the one that Patrick was facilitating.... we would have been out of there SO FAST... they don't have to be like that.

 

I really liked that Green managed to portray that just like the family members, people with cancer are just that -- people.  Some of them are nice, and some are grumpy, or angry, or downright nasty.   Some of them are ready to take their anger out on any and every person around them.  Others find in themselves a nice side they never realized they had.  But most of 'em are just like you and me.... tring to do the best they can with a NASTY thing that has swooped down from the skies and snatched up their lives... and may or may not put them down before killing them.   And there is no way to prepare, and there is nothing to do except just deal.

 

And I ended up (to my own astonishment) specializing in bereavement counseling when I finished my counseling work (along with career counseling... both dealing with losses, but different kinds....) and I worked at a hospice program as a bereavement counselor for several years.  I've run groups like that (and hopefully NEVER that badly!)

 

And in groups and individually I've worked with teens and adults who lost family members and friends to both of those cancers, and in a few dozen other ways that you don't wanna know anything about.   I helped one guy plan a funeral for his brother who died from the kind of cancer Augustus had...  and I have helped people have to struggle with not being able to go to funerals (or tell anyone) because they weren't married so the family was rejecting them.  I'm really glad that both parents let Hazel and Augustus be and remain friends.  Not every family does.   Families and friends can get really strange when confronted with death.

 

When Augustus offered the surprise to Hazel, my first reaction was, I don't think they would let someone 'bank' a surprise like that for any time in the future... and I wondered if the reality might have been what it ended up being.   So I wasn't surprised... but I was.  And I think the surprised worked on a literary and a human level.  Nice thing, and believable on the part of Augustus... 

 

Some of the details of that trip... hmmm... I dunno.   I was saddened but not too surprised by the turn of events in Amsterdam... and yes, I have met people who reacted the way that the one they went to visit reacted.  On a whole lot of levels.  I've seen the spiral into drugs and alcohol or other vices... and I have seen those who care about them do every and anything they can think of to pull 'em out of the spiral.   So yeah, maybe a little over dramatic, but on another level, yes, has the feel of truth at some level.....

 

I also think they did a great job of portraying the family members and other friends (and non-friends) and the interactions between them.  It was often a topic at the support group - how different one is treated after they are diagnosed... and how people's personal values change.... both for the individual, the family and their friends. Green nailed a lot of the people I have seen and/or heard about - the refuse-to-get-involved, the 'let me know when you are ready to go out for a meal' types... the ones who the refuse to admit it is happening, angry and/or substance abusing ones, the family members who want to be there and can't figure out how to do it... and the ones who manage to figure out a way to stay present in the midst of their pain.  Yup, those portrayals ring VERY true to me.  And I have done more than one or two of those myself at various times... Yup....

 

I agree the high-sounding language didn't match the age group -- except I know kids who affect that just as much as those who want to speak and act like they are from Britain rather than Indianapolis.  If that was his intent, I think Green nailed that one as well.   And some people really do try to push the envelope on words and books when that is all that is left to them....

 

On the religious piece, I was NOT in a religious-based hospice, and I was NOT a chaplain or chaplain trainee.  We did not bring up religion, but if it came up, we were free to talk about it.  But it blew me away that fully 2/3 of my clients wanted to talk about God and religion and the exact same kinds of questions that Augustus and Hazel and the others wanted to talk about.  And I can remember one person (details disguised) who insisted that she was willing to talk about ANY and EVERY thing EXCEPT God and Religion... and I said that would be fine.... except she brought it up each and every counseling session for nearly a year.   I think part of that is that when one is faced with death.... suddenly what had seemed important isn't, and what you don't want to deal with suddenly NEEDS dealing with.   

 

 

Are we all on board now, or are we still having to worry about spoilers???? thoughts?

[AnneLine]

Dang.  went back to edit, and my permission has been revoked.  SO... forgive the typos.  Grrrrrr.  

[AnneLine]

Oh... and I had planned to divide that long one into two smaller posts... but no could do.  Sorry if it was too LONG!  Bad habit!

[cartermia]

I could relate to the parents of Hazel more actually since my Granddad was recently (August 19, 2013) diagnosed with stage 3 colon cancer and the doctors said 3-6 months. He is doing chemotherapy (8/12 treatments) and his birthday is tomorrow! He was suppose to end his chemo treatments on his birthday but with all of this snow my grandmother and aunts didn't feel comfortable driving to the treatment place he is 4 behind. He will take one tomorrow, God-willing.

 

The reason why I could relate more to the parent's and not Hazel is because I go to my grandparent's house almost every weekend and help out there. I try to lessen the work of my grandmother and granddad. I feel that protective instinct kick in whenever Granddad is about to fall and I quickly get him to a chair. I try to make him drink plenty of juice and Gatorade (something the doctor told him to do) and eat plenty since he lost a lot of weight when he was in ICU after his surgery.

 

My granddad actually told me he was happy that it was him instead of one of his kids or grandkids, I almost cried when he told me this since I know he much pain he is in. I just wish I could take some of his pain since I have the strength to do it and Granddad is so weak. He is starting to remind me of a toddler since I see how he looks at life, he is sucking in as much life as he can it seems like.

 

Sorry, it was a little rant.

 

 

[Basilisa Marie]

Did the dialogue bother the hell out of anyone else? I mean I know these kids were smart but their vocabulary was just super-inflated to me. In high school I didn't know a single person who talked like they did in conversation (maybe some people in college, but they would sound super pretentious). I just have a hard time buying their dialogue as something realistic for teens. Maybe I'm alone here.

 

Yeah it's a pretty common criticism of the book. I sort of look at it as a narrative device, just part of his storytelling, in a way. 

[Basilisa Marie]

I find it interesting how this book brings to light how many people (around here) have dealt with cancer in their lives in some form. My dad had a non-hodgkin's lymphona tumor on his spine when I was in sixth grade. He did the radiation, rounds of chemo, and so far he's been (luckily) cancer-free for over a decade. 

 

It's been five days, I think we're good for major spoilers. 

 

Here's a page from Green's website answering some questions about TFIOS, in case anyone is interested about authorial intent.  John Green doesn't put a whole lot of stock in any kind of authorial intent himself ("books belong to their readers..." "my opinion about the book outside the text is just as valid as someone else's..."), but I think it's interesting. 

 

 

 

[PhuturePriest]

Maybe I'm just smarter than average teenagers, but I never noticed anything odd about the way they spoke.