A Concern

[MichaelFilo]

Sorry didn't mean to double post.

Edited January 21, 2005 by MichaelFilo

[bolts53]

i like god

[Cam42]

Mikey,

I posted this once before, but I can't find it now. Here is something I wrote awhile back about formal and material heresy. I am not one to use that language very often, but there is a time and a place where and when it is appropriate. Here is what I wrote.

Sorry, Father, but I have to ultimately disagree with you, on this one.

Protestantism is a Christian heresy that has flourished since the sixteenth
century after Christ. It says that man is saved by faith alone (sola fide),
and not by works, and that the sole authority for doctrine is the Bible
alone (sola scriptura), not any pope or council of bishops or tradition,
however ancient or hallowed. It interpreted the Bible in such a way that the
Catholic priesthood was no longer necessary.

G.K. Chesterson says, "Protestants are Catholics gone wrong; that is what is
really meant by saying they are Christians . . . Thus a Calvinist is a
Catholic obsessed with the Catholic idea of the sovereignty of God. But when
he makes it mean that God wishes particular people to be damned, we may say
with restraint that he has become a rather morbid Catholic. In point of fact
he is a diseased Catholic; and the disease left to itself would be death or
madness. But, as a matter of fact, the disease did not last long, and is
itself now practically dead. But every step he takes back towards humanity
is a step back towards Catholicism. Thus a Quaker is a Catholic obsessed
with the Catholic idea of gentle simplicity and truth . . ."

People who adhere to Protestants in and of themselves are not formal heretics.
But, Protestantism as a doctrine, is rightly called a heresy. Why? Because
it properly fulfills the requirement as the Catechism defines it.

CCC 2089: "...Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth
which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an
obstinate doubt concerning the same..."

Notice that catholic is NOT capitalized. I will provide the link, lest you
think that it is a typo on my part.

[url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c1a1.htm"]http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c1a1.htm[/url]

So, is the Protestant doctrine a heresy? Yes.

While a person may adhere to a heretical principle like Protestantism, they
are not necessarily guilty, on an individual level, of being a formal heretic.

How can this be? Protestantism is a heresy, by definition. See above.
This does not change. This is a truth, so much so that the only correction
for Protestantism is the recociliation of different Protestant denominations
to themselves and then the "uber-Protestant" church to reconcile to Holy
Mother Church.

If a person has no knowledge that he is not in a heretical state and is not
taught that the defining truth is Catholicism, he is not a formal heretic, but rather, a material heretic. However, he is in adherance to a heretical prinicple.

In otherwords, a baptized Protestant churchman is not necessarily a formal heretic,
but he does, de facto, adhere to a heretical prinicple.

This all changes when said churchman is exposed to Catholicism on both an
intellectual and evangelical level and denies it. Why? Precisely because
he is baptized. He then is deemed heretical, by definition. At any time
before that he is in a state of either voluntary or involuntary doubt and/or
incredulilty. Look to CCC 2088-2089.

If those who are not Catholic are not in some form of error, why convert
them? Why the evangelization and catechesis?

"....there aren't too many protestants out there that aren't aware of the
fact that they do not believe in the priesthood or the pope or
transubstantiation."

Have they been properly evangelized and catechized? Have those same people
been engaged on an intellectual level that would constitute AUTHENTIC
conversion? Or are they simply going on preconceptions? There are
qualifiers.

So, by my definition most DON'T AUTHENTICALLY know that they are in
disagreement with the Church.

Again, if one who is not Catholic is authentically taught the Faith and they
don't assent to it, they are in a state of voluntary or involutary doubt.
Not heresy.

Prostestantism is still a heretical prinicple though. BTW, Protestantism
denys any number of tenents that God has revealed to be true. Are they in
error? If so, what is that error? Not the people mind you, the religion?

Does Protestantism exist? Yes. Does Protetantism contain those things that
are contrary to Catholic teaching? Yes. Are most Protestants baptized?
Yes. What is the defintion of heresy? ""Heresy is the obstinate
post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and
catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same..."
CCC 2089

This is not only speaking of a Roman Catholic but also any Christian who is
baptized and has an obstinate doubt about the faith.

Are you saying that a person baptized outside the Church is somehow less
baptized? If you look closely, you will see that the CCC speaks of
catholics not Catholics. Big difference. Does this in fact include those
outside the Roman Catholic Church? Yes, how can I say that? The Orthodox
Church is in a state of schism. That includes heresy. Protestantism is not
a schism, but it is a heresy. By definition.

Protestantism is more than an idea. It is a way of life. It is lived by
those who are currently apotstates and those who live in a state of either
involuntary or voluntary doubt, and in some cases yes, heresy. But the idea
of Protestantism is in fact a heretical priniciple.

You ask, "What is the penalty for heresy?"

I answer that, "There is no salvation outside the Church."

You say, "You cannot have an heresy without the heretics. Heresy is not
defined exclusively as an idea but as an idea actively promoted by.. a post
baptismal person.

You cannot separate the two. An idea cannot be heresy on its own. So if
they are not heretics because they have not been AUTHENTICALLY been
catechized. Then what they believe would not be construed as heresy."

I would respond to that in this way. The Church expressly distinguishes
between "formal" and "material" heretics. A "formal" heretic rejects the
Church and its teaching absolutely and with full deliberation; a "material"
heretic rejects the Church from lack of knowledge, being influenced by false
prejudice or by an anti-Catholic upbringing.

So it would seem that Protestantism can in fact be a heresy and baptized
protestants can and are, by the Church's definition, at the very least
"material" heretics.

So, with that in mind, I would return to my first assertion, Protestantism
is the greatest heresy.

Cam42

[IcePrincessKRS]

If you notice the dates on this thread you'll see that its nearly a year old. Father Pontifex was not saying that Protestantism is not/does not contain heresy--he was saying thats its not prudent or charitable to throw around accusations of heresy willy-nilly on the phorum (as some members have done). If you have some objection to what Fr. P. said then you should take it up in private by e-mailing or private messaging him, he doesn't post in this part of the phorum often and likely will not see your posts.