Papa Francis Attacks 'idolatry Of Money'

[Basilisa Marie]

Excuse me for pointing out the truth and breaking up your little economic hate-fest.   I'll just get out of the way, lest pointing out the truth again brings further judgement and calls for me being "addressed."

 

Oh, don't be like that.  I'm not hating on capitalism, and neither is Francis.  There are ways capitalism can be done better, and ways to help people do it more in line with our Catholic Christian ideals.  Capitalism isn't more important than Christ. 

 

It just annoys me when I see people that say "oh, bad translation" and pretty much leave it at that. I acknowledged that there have been and probably will continue to be serious translation issues.  But at the same time, so many people are calling "translation issue!!!" that it's getting to the point where it functions less like a reasonable criticism of the work and more like an excuse to shut down conversation and close themselves off to having their preconceived notions being challenged.  

[PhuturePriest]

Oh, don't be like that.  I'm not hating on capitalism, and neither is Francis.  There are ways capitalism can be done better, and ways to help people do it more in line with our Catholic Christian ideals.  Capitalism isn't more important than Christ. 

 

It just annoys me when I see people that say "oh, bad translation" and pretty much leave it at that. I acknowledged that there have been and probably will continue to be serious translation issues.  But at the same time, so many people are calling "translation issue!!!" that it's getting to the point where it functions less like a reasonable criticism of the work and more like an excuse to shut down conversation and close themselves off to having their preconceived notions being challenged.  

 

Be quiet, commie.

[Anomaly]

If prophecy were policy, what would be the point? "Woe to the rich" is not an economic policy statement.

Next papal exhortation:

Dear World,

You're all doing swell. Here's a pat on the back.

Pope Frank

I don't think it means what you think "woe to the rich" means. Also woe to the well fed, good humored, and respected.

“But woe to you who are rich,
for you have already received your comfort.
25 Woe to you who are well fed now,
for you will go hungry.
Woe to you who laugh now,
for you will mourn and weep.
26 Woe to you when everyone speaks well of you,
for that is how their ancestors treated the false prophets.

[NotreDame]

Oh, don't be like that.  I'm not hating on capitalism, and neither is Francis.  There are ways capitalism can be done better, and ways to help people do it more in line with our Catholic Christian ideals.  Capitalism isn't more important than Christ. 

 

It just annoys me when I see people that say "oh, bad translation" and pretty much leave it at that. I acknowledged that there have been and probably will continue to be serious translation issues.  But at the same time, so many people are calling "translation issue!!!" that it's getting to the point where it functions less like a reasonable criticism of the work and more like an excuse to shut down conversation and close themselves off to having their preconceived notions being challenged.  

 

Well, most of the attention this is getting in the US is on the economics portion.  Of that, there are only a few paragraphs out of ~250 that are really on economics and only a few sentences that are getting all the attention.  When one of the most "contraversial" (for lack of a better term) of those sentences has it's whole meaning changed via a bad translation it does matter.  

 

I'm interested in getting it right before I'm interested in having a conversation and the lack of concern from others on this point has me worried. 

 

That aside, what do I think of the rest of those paragraphs?  Well, looking at the English version, you can tell it was poorly translated in parts just because it's so strangely worded in places.  And while it's a post-synod document with many contributors assumed, it's not clear that Pope Francis wrote this portion, but it's about what I'd expect from a Latin American dropped into Southern Europe trying to come to terms with the economic challenges they are facing with regard to the Euro, debt, soaring unemployment among the youth, old people dying from exposure in the summer.  

 

And I'm not sure what you mean about "pre-conceived notions being challenged."  Pre-conceived notions are opinions formed beforehand without adequate evidence.   If you want to have a "conversation" then don't insult the people you disagree with by dismissing their opinions before you even know what they are. 

Edited December 10, 2013 by NotreDame

[Era Might]

I don't think it means what you think "woe to the rich" means. Also woe to the well fed, good humored, and respected.

“But woe to you who are rich,
for you have already received your comfort.
25 Woe to you who are well fed now,
for you will go hungry.
Woe to you who laugh now,
for you will mourn and weep.
26 Woe to you when everyone speaks well of you,
for that is how their ancestors treated the false prophets.

 

Yes, exactly. Christ didn't add footnotes to what he had to say. If we really wanted to, we could quibble for days with what he said...that's exactly what the pharisees did, and he refused to answer them. Just saying that, whatever one's social or economic views, if someone is going to bother to care what the pope has to say, then it would be a lot more productive if they received it differently from, say, an article in the Times. Otherwise, in my opinion, it's just as well to ignore what he has to say, and just read someone who's more insightful. Nobody is going to be quoting the pope for economic advice in 100 years, but for moral and spiritual witness, which is always rooted in the poor.

[the171]

[CrossCuT]

 Capitalism isn't more important than Christ. 

 

Does not compute  :robot:

[CatholicsAreKewl]

Oh, don't be like that.  I'm not hating on capitalism, and neither is Francis.  There are ways capitalism can be done better, and ways to help people do it more in line with our Catholic Christian ideals.  Capitalism isn't more important than Christ. 

 

It just annoys me when I see people that say "oh, bad translation" and pretty much leave it at that. I acknowledged that there have been and probably will continue to be serious translation issues.  But at the same time, so many people are calling "translation issue!!!" that it's getting to the point where it functions less like a reasonable criticism of the work and more like an excuse to shut down conversation and close themselves off to having their preconceived notions being challenged.  

 

It's statements like these that make me question why you still have a Church Militant tag.

[CrossCuT]

It's statements like these that make me question why you still have a Church Militant tag.

 

Pish posh! 

[NotreDame]

Bad translations are a big, serious problem, and certainly need to be addressed.

But when people hide behind the "bad translation" idea in order to not be challenged by the Pope's words... well, that's something that needs to be addressed too.

I think it's important to remember that John Paul II came from Poland, which is certainly why he fought so hard against communism. Francis comes from Argentina, where capitalism isn't the *best thing ever* because he's seen a lot of examples of how money translates to corrupting power. So it makes sense that he would have more biting critiques of capitalism than other popes.  The problem isn't capitalism, the problem is that unregulated capitalism serves as a temptation to people with power, tempting them toward corruption and exploitation. So we need checks on it to help it not exploit people.  Hence, Francis' criticisms of capitalism.

 (...)

Oh, don't be like that.  I'm not hating on capitalism, and neither is Francis.  There are ways capitalism can be done better, and ways to help people do it more in line with our Catholic Christian ideals.  Capitalism isn't more important than Christ. 

 

It just annoys me when I see people that say "oh, bad translation" and pretty much leave it at that. I acknowledged that there have been and probably will continue to be serious translation issues.  But at the same time, so many people are calling "translation issue!!!" that it's getting to the point where it functions less like a reasonable criticism of the work and more like an excuse to shut down conversation and close themselves off to having their preconceived notions being challenged.  

 

I'm re-reading this and realizing I missed a few things...  Let me address those.

 

First, you mention your concern here is regarding the desire to have a conversation.  Ulimately, BM, if you want a genuine conversation about topics like this, it might help to approach them in ways that don't judge the person you are conversing with and don't dismiss their points of view before the conversation even starts.  In my case you did both of those things.  You implied I was "hiding" and you strangely said that behavior needed to be "addressed."  You also implied my views were "preconceived notions", meaning they have no grounds in reality and did so before I even expressed any opinion on what Pope Francis said.  Also, your "capitalism isn't more important than Christ" sure seems to imply that I might think that's the case, which I can only take as a huge personal attack on my faith.

 

I don't normally enter into conversations on serious topics with people that judge me and dismiss my opinions before the conversation even starts.  Is it unreasonable to believe such people are either uninterested or incapable of serious discussion (or both)?

 

Second, you are coming into the conversation pretending to know exactly what Pope Francis means and exactly what is needed.  To the first point, unless you read the original document, you can not know what he actually said because the translation is so bad.  Even then, simply knowing the words does not necessarily equate to knowing their meaning... Yet you already say you understand his exact meaning, you understand capitalism, and you understand what's necessary to fix everything.  No analysis, nothing... just straight to conclusions... From this position it would seem you are more eager to engage in a lecture than a "coversation."

 

So forgive me if, when you say you want to have a conversation, I am a bit skeptical. 

[CatholicsAreKewl]

So forgive me if, when you say you want to have a conversation, I am a bit skeptical. 

 

 

Me too. This liberal wants a conversionsation not a conversation!

Edited December 10, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl