Discerning A Discalced Carmelite Vocation - And Nervous

[SilentJoy]

 

What MIGHT be helpful is this book:  My Beloved, The Story of a Carmelite Nun by Mother Catherine Thomas of Divine Providence, OCD.   That book is about 60 years old, and in many Carmels, some of the details of what she writes are no longer practiced.  Much of what she writes WOULD be true of a fairly traditional Carmel (and the 1990's in general) even in 2013.   

I loved the book, thanks for the recommendation! I did have a problem, though, with Mother's statement on the bottom of page 208 (of the online version) that "there is no other way for a nun to practice [humility] unless one is occasionally humiliated." It just seems very odd that someone would be so close to Love and yet say something like that...maybe I misunderstood the way she used the word, but it seems like deliberate humiliation, on its own, could only produce hatred (though I know God can work through this, too).

Any insight on this? Did I misunderstand?

[SilentJoy]

Hi Silentjoy!

 

It is normal to be nervous or apprehensive. 

 

When your find the Carmel that you feel you belong, you will be at peace. 

 

My advise, ask Mother Prioress any questions that pops in your head, she would appreciate it.

 

Regarding Carmelite Customs, the vary even before Vatican II - there are two distinct group - the Spanish and French Customs.   After Vatican II, each Carmel are encourage to formulate their own customary or house statutes with or without the help the federation or associations they belong.

 

In Carmel, the operative word is: "Necessity has no law" as specified in the Carmelite Rule.

 

May God give you peace!

 

 

Gracian

 

Thanks! I do try to keep in contact with Mother if a question seems important.

[AnneLine]

I loved the book, thanks for the recommendation! I did have a problem, though, with Mother's statement on the bottom of page 208 (of the online version) that "there is no other way for a nun to practice [humility] unless one is occasionally humiliated." It just seems very odd that someone would be so close to Love and yet say something like that...maybe I misunderstood the way she used the word, but it seems like deliberate humiliation, on its own, could only produce hatred (though I know God can work through this, too).

Any insight on this? Did I misunderstand?

 

I am glad you enjoyed the book!!!!

 

I can understand why Mother's comment on humility and humiliations might make you uncomfortable.  I'm not sure I have a total answer on this, but I'll share my thoughts for what they are worth.  

 

I think that most of us have a lot of pride, one way or another, if we are honest.  Every spiritual writer indicates that it is the HARDEST thing for us to deal with... and it is at the core of the problems we have with obedience charity, and a hundred other important virtues.  

 

Humiliations HURT.  It's easy to say we don't want to be hurt, and that we don't want to have to experience them. "It's not HEALTHY to have to live in a lifestyle that will cause us to be humiliated!'

 

But the reality is that, inside or outside of religious life, we will experience them.  Yup.  Every one of us.   The question is, what do we do with that pain, that embarrassment.   We can keep the focus on ourselves... or we can learn the discipline of uniting our pain with that of Christ, and trying to see the lesson we need to learn... the one that resulted in having just experienced a humiliation.   Was it that we put ourselves to the forefront?  Did we do something or say something without thinking?  Or did we just see for the first (or the 100th!) time that we are NOT good at something?  Well.... all of those are humiliating, yes?   I have experienced HUGE humiliations at work, in my family, in life in the everyday world.   

 

I was also in a religious community at one point, and we certainly had corrections given to us, but it was never in a spirit of unkindness or humiliation for the sake of humiliation -- it was always with the focus on helping us to grow holier and/or into better religious.  I believe Mother Catherine Thomas gives the example of a ballerina asking her fellow dancers to let her know if her form or other elements of her performance are less than perfect.  Trust me, they can be VERY hard on each other.  But it is to that end.  and so it should be in corrections in the religious life.

 

Now in Carmel -- in most traditional religious communities, for sure, but also in others -- there are moments when we are brought face-to-face with our own weakness, pride, areas that need improvement.  In some communities, this is done through a Chapter of Faults or corrections... or in a Community meeting... other times it is just a correction from a Superior... or an interaction with a fellow sister or brother.  NONE of them are pleasant moments, for sure.   But if those are utilized in a way that lets us grow from it and throw ourselves back on our Lord, they can be truly graced moments.

 

I think THIS is what Mother Catherine Thomas is trying to say.   

 

However, there are some communities and some superiors who let people get 'humiliated' or 'corrected' in ways that are not in keeping with the love and mildness of Christ.  THESE are destructive to the individuals who experience them... and this is probably what you are envisioning.  I don't think Mother is discussing the same thing.   At least I certainly hope not!

 

HOWEVER, others may see something different and have other viewpoints or insights.

 

Praying for you....

[SilentJoy]

 

 

I think THIS is what Mother Catherine Thomas is trying to say.   

 

 

Thanks!

[graciandelamadrededios]

I loved the book, thanks for the recommendation! I did have a problem, though, with Mother's statement on the bottom of page 208 (of the online version) that "there is no other way for a nun to practice [humility] unless one is occasionally humiliated." It just seems very odd that someone would be so close to Love and yet say something like that...maybe I misunderstood the way she used the word, but it seems like deliberate humiliation, on its own, could only produce hatred (though I know God can work through this, too).

Any insight on this? Did I misunderstand?

 

Anneline explained it well.

 

In my line of work, chapter of faults is like team coaching or individual coaching.

 

In team coaching - the entire team meets and the team leader discusses the strength and opportunities of each member.  At times, its hard to accept that you need improvement when you think that you did your best but if you look objectively, its for your own good.  good metrics means good company incentives.

 

In individual coaching, the team lead will discuss your strength and opportunities and what are the actions you needed to take.

 

So its kind of similar in the cloister.

[maximillion]

The path of perfection is not an easy one. That said, no one should be humiliated for the sake of it, and while Sisters and Brothers in RL are human and can sometimes be petty, I don't think deliberate unkindness enters into it, or it ought not!

 

I was in a cloistered community for fourteen years - not Carmel, but with a very similar rule and lifestyle. We didn't have chapter of faults but every Friday night before Compline we had a little ceremony when we filed past each other in turn, begged each persons forgiveness for any fault against charity (love) and offered forgiveness to the Sister into whom's eyes we were gazing.

Now, ordinarily this is a moving and heartfelt event, but if there HAD been any pettiness, quarrel or disagreement, it could feel at times quite overwhelming to do this and remain sincere and open hearted. At times it did feel humiliating. At times I rebelled in my thoughts - why am I asking forgiveness for things I wasn't even aware had upset someone!

 

What this and other little practices do is slowly wear away at the pride Anneline was talking about. When I am loving, openhearted and can embrace my shame, then I can be sure He is working in me.

 

So yes, there may well be times you feel humiliation. My NM used to say we felt humiliation in direct relation to the degree that we were still prideful - I am not sure about that one, but TBH I have experienced much more humiliation at the hands of my creative writing circle than I ever did in the convent!

[AnneLine]

You might find a video series that is on Youtube helpful, SilentJoy.  I tis called 'The Monastery 2005' and was a BBC series that portrayed the experience of 5 secular men who lived with the Benedictine Monks at Worth Abbey in Sussex for 40 days.   At one point one of the monks discusses the relationship between pride and asking forgiveness and living in harmony with the other monks and/or the other men.   I have found myself thinking of that series many times... and I think it is very akin to what Maximillion described above.  Very interesting and useful insight, Max!

 

Here's a link to the first segment -- but the discussion I mention takes place several segments later.  BUT you need to stick with the opening and first few sections or you won't understand the nature of the conflict that erupts!   It's an excellent series...

 

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKTA1e2boSc[/media]

[graciandelamadrededios]

I read somewhere that after the chapter of faults, the nun's recreation is livelier.

 

Its kind of liberating for them.

 

And it really depends on how you view these practices.  

 

 

[maximillion]

Ah, Gracian, and there you have it......

 

 

it really depends on how you view these practices.

 

An attitude of open willingness to accept that achieving perfection is going to be at times painful (I like the ballet dancer idea, have you ever seen a dancers feet? Man that has to HURT!), is I think an absolute requirement. However, as I have said, and so did Anneline, life - as well as RL, is hurtful. We can't avoid it, it is part of the human condition. Did you ever know anything in life that was important that didn't involve a struggle or a challenge?

 

RL has it's distinctive and particular challenges - that's all.

[SilentJoy]

 

We didn't have chapter of faults but every Friday night before Compline we had a little ceremony when we filed past each other in turn, begged each persons forgiveness for any fault against charity (love) and offered forgiveness to the Sister into whom's eyes we were gazing.

Now, ordinarily this is a moving and heartfelt event, but if there HAD been any pettiness, quarrel or disagreement, it could feel at times quite overwhelming to do this and remain sincere and open hearted. At times it did feel humiliating. At times I rebelled in my thoughts - why am I asking forgiveness for things I wasn't even aware had upset someone!

 

What this and other little practices do is slowly wear away at the pride Anneline was talking about. When I am loving, openhearted and can embrace my shame, then I can be sure He is working in me.

 

 

What a wonderful custom!

 

From the responses, I am concluding that "humiliation" refers to what is felt, not what is inflicted. That makes more sense, thanks.

[graciandelamadrededios]

Its also called "fraternal correction"

[AnneLine]

A slightly different insight... but one that might help....

 

I help people in the Secular Order to which I belong learn the basics of each step of formation.  This includes learning how to pray the Liturgy of the Hours, reading and really learning the Rule, Constitutions, Statutes, writings of our Saints, history and a lot of additional things.  Sometimes people are really good at learning things... for others, it just comes a lot harder.  But the work must be done.... and sometimes, well, there is additional learning that goes along with it!

 

Our Council often has had to suggest to someone that they would benefit from waiting an additional period of time before advancing to the novitiate, or going into first promises, or making their final commitments.  And sometimes we've had to tell people that they simply don't have the vocation, even though we know they WANT to have been given the vocation terribly.  (And most of us on Vocation Station can also see these things happen in religious communities, too....).   Other times we have to tell people that they are trying TOO hard, and that they need to just do what they are asked, which might not be what they want to do!

 

It can be a huge humiliation to some people to have it suggested that they might benefit from waiting a little longer, or that they need to repeat a section of the formation materials, or that they need to work a little harder at learning what we put in front of them rather than reading ahead or a different set of books.  But we wouldn't' be doing our job if we did NOT gently and lovingly tell people the truth.   And I have seen God do some pretty incredible things with the ones who are able to accept the humiliation of repeating a section, or waiting a little longer, or simply doing something purely for love of God even though they might not want to do it.  And I have benefitted from some firm and gentle corrections that have come my way!   But it is NOT an easy thing to accept them.... or to put them into practice.

 

I think the key is love for God and the ability to trust the superiors who speak for God.   If you trust them, you will be able to do what they suggest.